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Unexpected trouble mapping x-c route

Old 12-27-21, 09:15 AM
  #26  
John N
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Originally Posted by TiHabanero View Post
.... Turn by turn through large population areas is not practical....
I guess it depends on your definition of "practical". As I said, a simple Cue Sheet from Chicago to Milwaukee is 1 typed page. To me, that is not impractical.

Regardless, glad you are going to give GPS a try. Check out RWGPS as there are several maps segments you can easily piece together for the route you want to take, most on rail trails or signed bike routes. Then RWGPS can print you a cue sheet. You can condense or expand upon those as much as you desire.
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Old 12-27-21, 09:30 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by John N View Post
I guess it depends on your definition of "practical". As I said, a simple Cue Sheet from Chicago to Milwaukee is 1 typed page. To me, that is not impractical....
or just check the googles...

Bicycling from Milwaukee to Chicago


It is possible to travel most of the way between Milwaukee and Chicago on bicycle trails. The Wisconsin portion of this route is shown on the Milwaukee and Southeast Wisconsin bike map from bikeverywhere that can be downloaded to cell phones. The Illinois part of the route is shown on the Chicagoland Bicycle map from Chicago's Active Transportation Alliance.
....
....
Southeast to Indiana

At the southern end of its lakeshore trail, Chicago has a marked route ontinuing southeast to the Chicago Skyway, where it picks up the Burnham Trail. A series of bike trails in northwestern Indiana can be used to cross into Michigan. The state of Michigan publishes regional bike maps.

Bicycling from Milwaukee to Chicago
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Old 12-27-21, 06:53 PM
  #28  
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Hmm... for the record, a turn-by-turn cue sheet starting at the Harley-Davidson Museum and ending at the Art Institute of Chicago, which is definitely worth the trip, btw. Generated by Google Maps. Enjoy.

Start : 400 W Canal St, Milwaukee, WI 53201, United States
Head west toward S 6th St: .1 mi
Turn left onto S 6th St: .3 mi
At the traffic circle, take the 3rd exit onto W Florida St: .4 mi
Turn right onto S 1st St: 1.0 mi
Continue onto S Kinnickinnic Ave: .7 mi
Slight right onto S Howell Ave: 1.8 mi
Keep right to stay on S Howell Ave: 230 ft
Turn left onto S Chase Ave: 69 ft
Continue onto S Howell Ave: .8 mi
Turn right onto W Bolivar Ave: .5 mi
Turn left onto S 6th St
Pass by Starbucks (on the right in 0.5 mi): 2.8 mi
Turn left onto W College Ave: .1 mi
Turn right: .6 mi
Turn left toward S Howell Ave: 269 ft
Turn right onto S Howell Ave: 1.3 mi
Turn left onto E Manitoba Ave: .2 mi
E Manitoba Ave turns right and becomes Oak Leaf Trail: 2.7 mi
Turn left to stay on Oak Leaf Trail: .2 mi
Turn left to stay on Oak Leaf Trail: .2 mi
Continue onto E Ryan Rd: .5 mi
Turn right onto Oak Leaf Trail: 2.1 mi
Turn left onto E County Line Rd: .5 mi
Turn right onto Foley Rd: 2.0 mi
Turn left onto 6 Mile Rd: 2.0 mi
Turn right onto MRK Trail: 1.6 mi
Slight left to stay on MRK Trail: 1.7 mi
Continue onto County Bike Trail: 1.4 mi
Turn right onto Layard Ave: .3 mi
Turn left onto Mt Pleasant St: .5 mi
Continue onto Root Riv Pathway: .3 mi
Slight right onto Westwood Dr: .2 mi
Turn left onto Jefferson St: .3 mi
Continue onto Domanik Dr: .1 mi
Slight left onto Root Riv Pathway: .3 mi
Turn right to stay on Root Riv Pathway: .2 mi
Turn left to stay on Root Riv Pathway: .3 mi
Turn right onto N Horlick Dr: 171 ft
Turn left onto Horlick Dr: .1 mi
Turn right onto Root Riv Pathway: .3 mi
Slight left to stay on Root Riv Pathway: .3 mi
Slight right to stay on Root Riv Pathway: .5 mi
Slight right onto Quincy Ave: .1 mi
Turn right onto Wright Ave: .1 mi
Turn left onto West Blvd: .2 mi
Turn right onto County Bike Trail: 2.0 mi
Continue straight to stay on County Bike Trail: 1.9 mi
Keep right to stay on County Bike Trail: 1.8 mi
Turn left onto 22nd Ave: 102 ft
Turn right onto County Bike Trail: 1.9 mi
Turn left onto 35th St: .3 mi
Turn right onto 22nd Ave: .8 mi
Turn right onto 46th St: 328 ft
Turn left onto 23rd Ave: 1.2 mi
Turn right: .5 mi
Turn right onto 69th St: .2 mi
Turn left onto 26th Ave: .7 mi
At the traffic circle, take the 2nd exit onto Lincoln Rd: .2 mi
Turn left onto 28th Ave: 266 ft
Turn right onto 80th St: .1 mi
Turn left onto 30th Ave: 1.0 mi
Continue onto Kenosha County Bike Trail
Entering Illinois: 3.5 mi
Continue onto Robert McClory Bike Path: 12.1 mi
Turn right onto 22nd St/Martin Luther King Jr Dr: 285 ft
Turn left onto Commonwealth Ave: .2 mi
Slight left toward Robert McClory Bike Path: 436 ft
Continue onto Robert McClory Bike Path: .2 mi
Slight left to stay on Robert McClory Bike Path: 2.3 mi
Slight left to stay on Robert McClory Bike Path: .3 mi
Sharp right toward N Shore Bike Path: 135 ft
Turn right onto N Shore Bike Path: .3 mi
Slight left to stay on N Shore Bike Path: .1 mi
Take the pedestrian tunnel: .6 mi
Turn left onto Skokie Valley Bike Path: 4.5 mi
Turn right onto Old Elm Rd: 492 ft
Make a U-turn: .1 mi
Turn right onto Skokie Valley Bike Path: 4.5 mi
Turn left onto Clavey Rd: 1.3 mi
Turn right onto Green Bay Rd: .6 mi
Turn left onto County Line Rd: .3 mi
Turn right onto Green Bay Trail: .9 mi
Slight left to stay on Green Bay Trail: .5 mi
Turn right toward Old Green Bay Rd: 36 ft
Turn left onto Old Green Bay Rd: 246 ft
Old Green Bay Rd turns slightly right and becomes Green Bay Trail: .1 mi
Continue onto Old Green Bay Rd: .3 mi
Slight right onto Green Bay Trail: 2.4 mi
Turn left toward Wilson St: 59 ft
Turn left onto Wilson St: 43 ft
Turn right onto Willow Rd: .5 mi
Turn right onto Sheridan Rd: 3.1 mi
Turn left to stay on Sheridan Rd: 1.4 mi
Continue onto Chicago Ave: 2.2 mi
Continue onto N Clark St: 1.8 mi
Turn left after AutoZone Auto Parts (on the left): .6 mi
Turn right onto N Winthrop Ave: .5 mi
Turn left onto W Ardmore Ave: .2 mi
W Ardmore Ave turns slightly right and becomes Lakefront Trail: 331 ft
Turn right to stay on Lakefront Trail: .7 mi
Turn right to stay on Lakefront Trail: 1.1 mi
Sharp right: .1 mi
Turn right: .1 mi
Continue onto Lakefront Trail/U.S. Bicycle Rte 37: .4 mi
Slight left onto N Recreation Dr: .4 mi
Continue onto W Belmont Harbor Dr: 184 ft
Turn right onto Lakefront Trail/U.S. Bicycle Rte 37: 23 ft
Continue straight to stay on Lakefront Trail/U.S. Bicycle Rte 37: .7 mi
Slight left to stay on Lakefront Trail/U.S. Bicycle Rte 37: .1 mi
Slight right to stay on Lakefront Trail/U.S. Bicycle Rte 37: 75 ft
Slight left: .6 mi
Turn left: 72 ft
Turn right: .5 mi
Turn left onto Lakefront Trail/U.S. Bicycle Rte 37: .6 mi
Turn right to stay on Lakefront Trail/U.S. Bicycle Rte 37
Continue to follow Lakefront Trail: 157 ft
Turn left onto Lakefront Trail/U.S. Bicycle Rte 37
Parts of this road are closed 7:00 PM – 6:00 AM: .9 mi
Keep right to stay on Lakefront Trail/U.S. Bicycle Rte 37: .8 mi
Slight right to stay on Lakefront Trail/U.S. Bicycle Rte 37: 138 ft
Slight right to stay on Lakefront Trail/U.S. Bicycle Rte 37: .2 mi
Slight left to stay on Lakefront Trail/U.S. Bicycle Rte 37: 236 ft
Continue straight to stay on Lakefront Trail/U.S. Bicycle Rte 37: .8 mi
Turn right onto E Monroe St: .3 mi
The Art Institute of Chicago: 111 S Michigan Ave, Chicago, IL 60603, United States

Last edited by gauvins; 12-27-21 at 07:25 PM.
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Old 12-28-21, 07:39 AM
  #29  
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The turns generated by Google are excessive. Note that many of the decisions are hundreds of feet apart, on marked bike trails. The last two dozen lines or so tell you to stay on the Lakefront Trail. There's even a helpful hint in there about taking a pedestrian tunnel. At least there's only one ad in there, for some auto parts.

A friend gave me an app-generated cue sheet for cycling from Phoenix to Tucson, a hundred or so lines long, roughly half of which told me how to get under every bike path underpass on a well-marked bike trail in Tucson. A state map told me the six turns I really needed to make.
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Old 12-28-21, 09:55 AM
  #30  
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Some visual gps unit, easiest..no muss, no fuss, particularly when turns are a short distance apart.

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Old 12-28-21, 09:59 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by fishboat View Post
Some visual gps unit, easiest..no muss, no fuss, particularly when turns are a short distance apart.

That "visual gps unit" could be your phone uisng google directions.
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Old 12-28-21, 10:29 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by andrewclaus View Post
The turns generated by Google are excessive. Note that many of the decisions are hundreds of feet apart, on marked bike trails. The last two dozen lines or so tell you to stay on the Lakefront Trail. There's even a helpful hint in there about taking a pedestrian tunnel. At least there's only one ad in there, for some auto parts.

A friend gave me an app-generated cue sheet for cycling from Phoenix to Tucson, a hundred or so lines long, roughly half of which told me how to get under every bike path underpass on a well-marked bike trail in Tucson. A state map told me the six turns I really needed to make.
Understood. But it raises the question of how to prune the cue sheet. Not a problem when you are familiar with the route, but less so if you are not. How do you create your cue sheet?
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Old 12-28-21, 11:48 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by staehpj1 View Post
That "visual gps unit" could be your phone uisng google directions.
Google sucks, plain and simple. It's a terrible bike direction method.

Yes, you can put a smartphone on a holder on a handlebar, then use any number of free apps, RWGPS, Kamoots,etc.... to get better directions and visual indications on a map. Dedicated cycling GPS units excel at this is why many folks find them worth the expense.
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Old 12-28-21, 11:48 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by gauvins View Post
Understood. But it raises the question of how to prune the cue sheet. Not a problem when you are familiar with the route, but less so if you are not. How do you create your cue sheet?
If I have access to Google Maps, I'll make notes on major turns, like departures from long straight runs, often with a prior landmark on a critical turn. Often just writing the notes guarantees I'll remember them and I won't need the notes--that's just the way my brain works (which was handy in school). If I have access to a printer, I'll print out a detail maps of confusing areas, with sufficient scale to read road names. Or if I want to explore a bit off route, like sight-seeing in the Chicago Loop. Sketches often work well too.

I do have a smart phone now (new last year), but still prefer the "old way." I've heard that kind of spatial thinking is good for the brain, and I enjoy the mental challenge. And as mentioned, getting off route can be fun too, and can lead to new friends and adventures.
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Old 12-28-21, 11:59 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by andrewclaus View Post
If

I do have a smart phone now (new last year), but still prefer the "old way." I've heard that kind of spatial thinking is good for the brain, and I enjoy the mental challenge. And as mentioned, getting off route can be fun too, and can lead to new friends and adventures.
There was an entire article in the NY Times a few years ago commenting on how people lose that ability to "know" direction and the ability to use spatial thinking to locate themselves and find their way to destinations. Part of the article was the methods used to train London cabbies (the black vehicle, not the newer versions) whom have to pass a rigorous test at finding their way around the city, including locating really obscure restaurants, business, etc.... and not allowed to use Google Maps or a GPS. Takes like a year or two before they pass a test and get accepted.
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Old 12-28-21, 05:16 PM
  #36  
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andrewclaus yes, I see... Hmmm... how would you deal with the Narita -> Tokyo train station cue sheet? I certainly would get lost. (I've attached the txt file -- this forum doesn't allow non-ascii characters...)
Attached Files
File Type: txt
Narita.txt (4.1 KB, 4 views)
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Old 12-28-21, 08:05 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Steve B. View Post
There was an entire article in the NY Times a few years ago commenting on how people lose that ability to "know" direction and the ability to use spatial thinking to locate themselves and find their way to destinations. Part of the article was the methods used to train London cabbies (the black vehicle, not the newer versions) whom have to pass a rigorous test at finding their way around the city, including locating really obscure restaurants, business, etc.... and not allowed to use Google Maps or a GPS. Takes like a year or two before they pass a test and get accepted.
....and about those beijing cab drivers that couldn't find a needle in a hutong. i found the drivers in kunming and nanning were not locals. growed up in the countryside, moved to the big city to make their fortunes. expect beijing would be same-same.

they had a car, but no local knowledge. solution? they'd spend a couple weeks riding the buses, all day every day, making note of the housing complexes. when you call a taxi, you rarely ask for a specific address or business........you ask for the nearest housing area, then direct the driver when you got close.

strange thing is, you could ask for "great wall towers" which was only half a km away, but the driver wouldn't know the direct route. he could only follow the intersecting bus routes which he'd memorized. that short hop would then become 5 km of zigzagging. thought it was the old take the long way scam until realized how it followed the bus routes.

and maps? no concept of casting teleportation spells with 2d magic scrolls. hand the driver a printed map with route marked and he wouldn't know the first thing to do with it.

of course, nowadays most people ignore taxis, preferring to order a didi (half the price!) on their cellphones. didi drivers of course rely on their dashboard gps, and are as clueless as the taxi drivers. tried to get to a specific clinic for my covid booster a couple months ago....the negotiations with the didi'er was classic.

you know where xxxx public health station is located?...........huh?
just take me to the television station............huh, what television station. [there's only one in town.]
okay, take me to xxxx chinese medical hospital...........where?
fine, take me to the sinopec station next to the army base...........army base? [only 5 gas stations in town]
can you find xxx road?............which xxx? [street name uses two characters, but 100's of possible options]
ok, fine. bus is coming. buh-bye.
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Old 12-29-21, 06:31 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Steve B. View Post
Google sucks, plain and simple. It's a terrible bike direction method.
Yes the bike algotithm is pretty flawed. I generally use the car directions a lot of the time and check avoid highways when approproate. I do look at the bike directions to see if it finds an interesting bike route across town. We are talking about directions for crossing cities, right? Then if I don't like what I find I look at the car directions. There are usually a couple alternate choices. If I don't like any I might drag one around. I might also just pick one and go off route and let it recalculate while I ride off route with the maps showing. If I don't the the recalculated route i just keep ignoring it until I do. If I never do I use the screen like a paper map and wing it based on what I learned by looking at the map before starting out. Sometimes it might be an adventure.
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Old 12-29-21, 06:42 AM
  #39  
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I have done a variety of rides through big cities in the past four decades San Bernardino, California through Anaheim to Newport Beach; (Ft. Knox, Kentucky to downtown Atlanta; Ft. Knox through Detroit to Niagara on the Lake, Ontario; through Portland, Oregon, and Minneapolis, then Ottawa to Portland, Maine; Seattle through Indianapolis, then Columbus, Ohio on to Rehoboth Beach, Delaware. I find that being on a named/numbered highway in the city (whether US or state highway), there are adequate signs showing where to turn. While not opposed to GPS, or other systems, I have never needed them to get where I was going following adequate map study/planning.
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Old 12-29-21, 07:46 AM
  #40  
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FWIW, it has been a while since I have actually used google bike directions, but my biggest complaint was usually that they tended to go way out of their way to hit bike paths or rail trails, not something I want to do, but maybe just what someone else may. It would be nice if the bike directions added a few special check boxes for options. They could greatly enhance the utility of the directions. You could then dial in preferences for more direct or going out of the way to hit bike trails or whatever.
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Old 12-29-21, 08:14 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by staehpj1 View Post
FWIW, it has been a while since I have actually used google bike directions, but my biggest complaint was usually that they tended to go way out of their way to hit bike paths or rail trails....
And in Colorado, at least, Google will route the unsuspecting tourist on steep technical single-track trails. On the map, the Apex Trail looks like a nice alternative to I-70, but it's not.
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Old 12-29-21, 08:28 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by andrewclaus View Post
And in Colorado, at least, Google will route the unsuspecting tourist on steep technical single-track trails. On the map, the Apex Trail looks like a nice alternative to I-70, but it's not.
Yeah, that sucks. Again they could have a preference check box for off road, single track, etc. in the options, but they don't seem to be doing much to refine the bike directions. Seems a shame since they are doing so much with the car directions. They know about radar traps and road construction seemingly immediately, and yet they can't figure out that a steep technical single track trail is not a good altrenate roue for most riders or that going 10 miles out of the way to ride a rail trail for 10 miles of the ride probably isn't the best choice most of the time.

It may be that they need more feedback and have not reached the critcal mass of users to allow that in the bicycle directions. Also we as a group tend to want very different things. Some of us want a direct quick route that is reasonably safe. Some want bike lanes, bike paths, and care less about a direct route. Our traffic tolerance varies widely as well.
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Old 12-29-21, 08:34 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by gauvins View Post
andrewclaus yes, I see... Hmmm... how would you deal with the Narita -> Tokyo train station cue sheet? I certainly would get lost. (I've attached the txt file -- this forum doesn't allow non-ascii characters...)
I'd study Japanese first. I studied Chinese for a year before taking on a tour of the Middle Kingdom--invaluable, and talk about mentally challenging. That was before commercial GPS though.
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Old 12-29-21, 03:42 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by TiHabanero View Post
There are no particular cities that are causing problems, it is all cities in general. turn by turn instructions are getting really long and it simply seems an impractical way to go about navigating through a city. If a specific city is needed, use Chicago or Milwaukee as examples. Coming down from Green Bay or coming up from Gary (haven't decided yet).

Through Chicago from Gary use US Bicycle Route 36 in Indiana and to the Loop in Chicago, then USBR 37 north to the Wisconsin line. Find maps here: https://www.adventurecycling.org/rou...ute-resources/
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Old 12-29-21, 04:25 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by gauvins View Post
andrewclaus yes, I see... Hmmm... how would you deal with the Narita -> Tokyo train station cue sheet? I certainly would get lost. (I've attached the txt file -- this forum doesn't allow non-ascii characters...)
There are situations where a cue sheet may be the best tool; like your Japan experience, riding between the airport and the train station. Using a cue sheet is not an either or decision. Use one when you need it, and use other methods where the route is more straight forward.

We were riding from Charles de Gaulle Airport into Paris with our two daughters, and I had a very detailed map of the route we would take. We didn't get very far when we stopped at a confusing intersection, and looked at the map. A French bicycle commuter stopped, and asked if he could help. He looked at our map, and said, "follow me". He led us through a very complex part of the suburbs, and left us on a path along a canal leading right into Paris. Sometimes you don't need a map or cue sheet. This has happened to us numerous times, and has always been appreciated, and warranted one of our "Angel of the Road" cards.





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Old 12-29-21, 06:15 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by Doug64 View Post
We were riding from Charles de Gaulle Airport into Paris with our two daughters, and I had a very detailed map of the route we would take. We didn't get very far when we stopped at a confusing intersection, and looked at the map. A French bicycle commuter stopped, and asked if he could help. He looked at our map, and said, "follow me". He led us through a very complex part of the suburbs, and left us on a path along a canal leading right into Paris. Sometimes you don't need a map or cue sheet. This has happened to us numerous times, and has always been appreciated, and warranted one of our "Angle of the Road" cards.
Great story

I've ridden out of CDG quite a few times myself. Again (and it is clearly a matter of personal preferences/circumstances) I can't imagine myself attempting to find my way without electronic assistance. My typical scenario was to deplane, put my bike together and ride to Amiens (120k north of Roissy) were I was giving a lecture later in the afternoon -- too tight a schedule to rely on angels

I somehow wish that one day I can travel without constraint. I tend to be victim of the "pack-as-much-as-you-can-in-as-little-time-as-possible" syndrome. I should retire in a couple of years. Maybe there's hope
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Old 12-29-21, 11:49 PM
  #47  
Doug64
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Originally Posted by gauvins View Post
Great story

I've ridden out of CDG quite a few times myself. Again (and it is clearly a matter of personal preferences/circumstances) I can't imagine myself attempting to find my way without electronic assistance. My typical scenario was to deplane, put my bike together and ride to Amiens (120k north of Roissy) were I was giving a lecture later in the afternoon -- too tight a schedule to rely on angels

I somehow wish that one day I can travel without constraint. I tend to be victim of the "pack-as-much-as-you-can-in-as-little-time-as-possible" syndrome. I should retire in a couple of years. Maybe there's hope
Thanks for not giving me a hard time about my "Angle of the Road" cards.

Last edited by Doug64; 12-30-21 at 12:01 AM.
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Old 12-31-21, 07:50 PM
  #48  
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gauvin, you have stated exactly what i have discovered. Point well made. Garmin is on the horizon.
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