Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

Aero tuck vs pedal sprint downhill - Trying to improve a Strava segment

Notices
Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Aero tuck vs pedal sprint downhill - Trying to improve a Strava segment

Old 01-21-22, 12:07 PM
  #51  
GhostRider62
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 2,164
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1273 Post(s)
Liked 1,101 Times in 673 Posts
Originally Posted by jonathanf2 View Post
Fully hydrated I'm just under 150 lbs. On summer bike rides I can sweat out down to 140 lbs. in about 4 hours. I can also shred weight via carb cutting and send my body into ketosis which I've done before. At my height I have quite a bit of weight flexibility to drop down maybe another 20-25 pounds and still be considered healthy. I bike ride and power lift on my non-riding days. The only reason I haven't opted to cut more weight is due to my weight training, but I've been thinking of dedicating a few weeks to focus on becoming faster and lighter on my bike. People make it sound like it's impossible, but many athletes who compete in weight classes cut weight or shred prior to a competition.
I am quite familiar with ketosis and carb restrictions. Not too many bodybuilders shred 10 pounds each week even with special drugs. This is a caloric deficit of 5,500 kCals/day. That is a bucketload of energy to expend on TOP of your basal metabolic rate. Possible but this is like a RAAM level effort and just eating a normal diet. Could be done. I've only ridden some 1000+ mile weeks in a row and never lost 10 pounds per week and I'm 6'4''. I must be doing it wrong.
GhostRider62 is offline  
Old 01-21-22, 12:32 PM
  #52  
rumrunn6
Senior Member
 
rumrunn6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: 25 miles northwest of Boston
Posts: 27,148

Bikes: Bottecchia Sprint, GT Timberline 29r, Trek FX Alpha 7.0

Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4471 Post(s)
Liked 2,063 Times in 1,418 Posts
Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
To be picky, he ejected because his plane was in an unrecoverable flat spin. He did not pass out.
love it, thank you!
rumrunn6 is offline  
Old 01-21-22, 02:00 PM
  #53  
burnthesheep
Newbie racer
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 3,186

Bikes: Propel, red is faster

Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1456 Post(s)
Liked 1,405 Times in 876 Posts
Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
I am quite familiar with ketosis and carb restrictions. Not too many bodybuilders shred 10 pounds each week even with special drugs. This is a caloric deficit of 5,500 kCals/day. That is a bucketload of energy to expend on TOP of your basal metabolic rate. Possible but this is like a RAAM level effort and just eating a normal diet. Could be done. I've only ridden some 1000+ mile weeks in a row and never lost 10 pounds per week and I'm 6'4''. I must be doing it wrong.
Well if he's real and not faking, someone that cares that much likely has a bluetooth body scale logging to an app they could post up and show the data. I'm guessing.......we won't see that.
burnthesheep is offline  
Old 01-21-22, 03:33 PM
  #54  
Seattle Forrest
Senior Member
 
Seattle Forrest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 22,630
Mentioned: 80 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16969 Post(s)
Liked 8,899 Times in 4,979 Posts
Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
I agree, if you're talking primarily about water weight. 10lbs of fat in a week? That would definitely not be nothing and would be damn near impossible.
I know somebody who lost 140 pounds in 3 weeks doing keto. Bad breath was a deal breaker for his wife.
Seattle Forrest is offline  
Likes For Seattle Forrest:
Old 01-21-22, 10:28 PM
  #55  
jonathanf2
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 397

Bikes: '17 105 2x11 Sprint CF Comp / '21 GRX400 2x10 Poseidon X

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 182 Post(s)
Liked 336 Times in 165 Posts
I did the downhill segment again, but this time around I purposely drafted a Prius, pedaled up to speed and went super aero tuck. Unfortunately the Prius was going a bit too slow and I wasn't able to get adequate room to slingshot me out of the draft forcing me to slow down. Even so I cut 4 seconds off my previous PR, while 4 mph slower with a top speed of 36mph. ​​I'm beginning to wonder if the leaderboard riders were doing something similar or using their riding buddies to gain speed?

Honestly I'm finding this whole effort to go faster on this mini segment to be a great learning experience in technique and riding strategy.
jonathanf2 is offline  
Old 01-21-22, 11:02 PM
  #56  
SoSmellyAir
Method to My Madness
 
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: Orange County, California
Posts: 1,470

Bikes: Cannondale Synapse, Trek FX 2

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 704 Post(s)
Liked 441 Times in 331 Posts
Originally Posted by jonathanf2 View Post
Unfortunately the Prius was going a bit too slow ...
Really!? How to chime in without totally derailing this thread?
SoSmellyAir is offline  
Old 01-22-22, 02:19 AM
  #57  
SapInMyBlood
Enthusiastic Sufferer
 
SapInMyBlood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Perth, Australia
Posts: 228

Bikes: 2015 Specialized Roubaix, 2014 Salsa Fargo, 2013 Trek Remedy, 2014 Cannondale Synapse

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 124 Post(s)
Liked 287 Times in 101 Posts
Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
I know somebody who lost 140 pounds in 3 weeks doing keto. Bad breath was a deal breaker for his wife.
Absolutely not true.
SapInMyBlood is offline  
Old 01-22-22, 05:03 AM
  #58  
phrantic09
Fat n slow
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Saratoga, NY
Posts: 2,894

Bikes: Cervelo R3, Giant Revolt

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2167 Post(s)
Liked 1,278 Times in 605 Posts
Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
I'm aware of the math and I'm also aware that burning calories != burning fat. Exceptionally few people can operate at a 5k+ cal deficit 7 days in a row and those that can/do are almost certainly eating in to more than just their fat supply. I'll stand by my "damn near impossible," statement.
Right- with that kind of deficit you’re cannibalizing muscle.

even with a 3500 deficit over time, the fat loss eventually stops
phrantic09 is offline  
Likes For phrantic09:
Old 01-22-22, 06:27 AM
  #59  
Kabuto
Senior Member
 
Kabuto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Far East
Posts: 244
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 156 Post(s)
Liked 63 Times in 41 Posts
Originally Posted by jonathanf2 View Post
I'm beginning to wonder if the leaderboard riders were doing something similar or using their riding buddies to gain speed?
Drafting can make a huge difference. I suspect most KOMs that don't involve much climbing are set by people drafting other cyclists, scooters, cars or trucks etc. Hey, whatever works right?

I got myself to 9th overall on one particular 0.33km segment with -1.8% gradient by drafting a truck. The truck came along at the right time, I managed to jump on and averaged 63.7 km/h for the segment. The fastest average speed I'd managed up until then under my own power was just 50 km/h or so.
Kabuto is offline  
Likes For Kabuto:
Old 01-22-22, 08:26 AM
  #60  
njkayaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 13,001
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3321 Post(s)
Liked 812 Times in 569 Posts
Originally Posted by Elvo View Post
What segment is it? Cutting weight would reduce your frontal profile and increase your power to weight ratio so you can get a better running start. Also good to make sure you have your affairs in order like designated beneficiaries, will/trust, and advanced medical directives.
He's not really going to change his frontal profile with a loss of 10 pounds.

Small changes in position will have a much bigger effect than any weigh he can lose.
njkayaker is offline  
Old 01-22-22, 08:47 AM
  #61  
WhyFi
Senior Member
 
WhyFi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 37,830

Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo

Mentioned: 352 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19357 Post(s)
Liked 7,911 Times in 3,995 Posts
Originally Posted by SapInMyBlood View Post
Absolutely not true.
Itsajoke. It implies that the wife left him because she couldn't deal with the breath.
WhyFi is offline  
Likes For WhyFi:
Old 01-22-22, 09:22 AM
  #62  
big john
Senior Member
 
big john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
Posts: 18,956
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4218 Post(s)
Liked 3,624 Times in 1,966 Posts
Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Itsajoke. It implies that the wife left him because she couldn't deal with the breath.
A friend says she lost 200 pounds of ugly fat when she got a divorce.
big john is offline  
Likes For big john:
Old 01-22-22, 10:10 AM
  #63  
jonathanf2
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 397

Bikes: '17 105 2x11 Sprint CF Comp / '21 GRX400 2x10 Poseidon X

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 182 Post(s)
Liked 336 Times in 165 Posts
Originally Posted by Kabuto View Post
Drafting can make a huge difference. I suspect most KOMs that don't involve much climbing are set by people drafting other cyclists, scooters, cars or trucks etc. Hey, whatever works right?

I got myself to 9th overall on one particular 0.33km segment with -1.8% gradient by drafting a truck. The truck came along at the right time, I managed to jump on and averaged 63.7 km/h for the segment. The fastest average speed I'd managed up until then under my own power was just 50 km/h or so.
I thought I had adequate distance from the Prius, but when I got up to speed and went super aero tuck, I caught up quickly. There was no room to pass so I had to slow down, but it still resulted in a faster time. I'll probably try again without drafting a car and see if there's a difference. If my time is worst, then I'm guessing some sort of drafting technique was used to get that sub 1 minute time on the leaderboard. In the meantime the more I do this segment, the more I can figure out the optimal line for this downhill. Heck, if I find a car that will go slow enough that allows the draft, but fast enough to not pass it, that'll be perfect!
jonathanf2 is offline  
Old 01-22-22, 10:50 AM
  #64  
genejockey 
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
 
genejockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 9,967

Bikes: Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace

Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5377 Post(s)
Liked 5,640 Times in 2,877 Posts
Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
He's not really going to change his frontal profile with a loss of 10 pounds.

Small changes in position will have a much bigger effect than any weigh he can lose.
And if he's trying to gain speed going downhill, losing weight is exactly the opposite of that he wants to do.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."

"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
genejockey is online now  
Old 01-22-22, 12:26 PM
  #65  
Carbonfiberboy 
just another gosling
 
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 18,250

Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004

Mentioned: 108 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3292 Post(s)
Liked 1,230 Times in 908 Posts
I'm a good descender, don't really know why, but I've only ridden with 2 people on DF bikes who could descend side-by-side with me. There are KOMs on some local descents which I can't begin to match. Even my wife and I on our tandem, both of us on aerobars cannot get beyond about 5th place. My suspicion is that we're racing 'bents. No hope going up against a low-rider.
__________________
Results matter
Carbonfiberboy is offline  
Likes For Carbonfiberboy:
Old 01-22-22, 02:33 PM
  #66  
SapInMyBlood
Enthusiastic Sufferer
 
SapInMyBlood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Perth, Australia
Posts: 228

Bikes: 2015 Specialized Roubaix, 2014 Salsa Fargo, 2013 Trek Remedy, 2014 Cannondale Synapse

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 124 Post(s)
Liked 287 Times in 101 Posts
Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Itsajoke. It implies that the wife left him because she couldn't deal with the breath.
*sigh* I missed that
SapInMyBlood is offline  
Likes For SapInMyBlood:
Old 01-22-22, 03:25 PM
  #67  
jonathanf2
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 397

Bikes: '17 105 2x11 Sprint CF Comp / '21 GRX400 2x10 Poseidon X

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 182 Post(s)
Liked 336 Times in 165 Posts
Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
I'm a good descender, don't really know why, but I've only ridden with 2 people on DF bikes who could descend side-by-side with me. There are KOMs on some local descents which I can't begin to match. Even my wife and I on our tandem, both of us on aerobars cannot get beyond about 5th place. My suspicion is that we're racing 'bents. No hope going up against a low-rider.
Amongst my riding buddies, I'm the shortest and lightest, so I tend to focus more on hill climbing and going down the descents fast. I'm also a 'tweener height for bike frames, but I always opt for the smaller frame so I can have a lower center of gravity and slightly lighter frame. The downhill doesn't scare me much since i can ride really low and I can cut corners with my pedals practically scraping the pavement.

I feel like I'm attacking this segment hard, so to get that sub 1 minute time, I'm almost positive I need to utilize a draft and maybe on the final curve try to sling shot myself into a sprint once it flattens out.
jonathanf2 is offline  
Old 01-22-22, 03:46 PM
  #68  
Iride01
MotuekaCascadeChinook
 
Iride01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 10,249

Bikes: '20 Tarmac Disc Comp '78 Raleigh Competition GS

Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4135 Post(s)
Liked 2,657 Times in 1,848 Posts
I don't recall if this has been mentioned. Are you spinning out on the downhill? If so and you don't need your low ratios for the climb to the top, then get a crank with bigger rings and pedal all the way down.
Iride01 is offline  
Old 01-23-22, 07:21 PM
  #69  
NitroExpress
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Memphis, TN
Posts: 56

Bikes: 1974 Mirella ~ Campy Record Group, 1985 Maruishi Mountain Ace 18, 1999 Waterford 2200

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked 20 Times in 13 Posts
Your tuck is all wrong:


NitroExpress is offline  
Likes For NitroExpress:
Old 01-24-22, 12:02 AM
  #70  
Seattle Forrest
Senior Member
 
Seattle Forrest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 22,630
Mentioned: 80 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16969 Post(s)
Liked 8,899 Times in 4,979 Posts
Originally Posted by SapInMyBlood View Post
Absolutely not true.
​​​​​​The joke is that "lost 140 pounds" means "lost his wife."
Seattle Forrest is offline  
Old 01-24-22, 11:57 AM
  #71  
tomato coupe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,940

Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1829 Post(s)
Liked 2,896 Times in 1,203 Posts
Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
I'm a good descender, don't really know why, but I've only ridden with 2 people on DF bikes who could descend side-by-side with me. There are KOMs on some local descents which I can't begin to match. Even my wife and I on our tandem, both of us on aerobars cannot get beyond about 5th place. My suspicion is that we're racing 'bents. No hope going up against a low-rider.
I'd bet against it. Don't discount the fact that there are some really good riders in the world, and they know how to go fast in all situations. Even when you think you should be faster (on paper) they can still leave you in the dust.
tomato coupe is offline  
Old 01-24-22, 02:17 PM
  #72  
Carbonfiberboy 
just another gosling
 
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 18,250

Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004

Mentioned: 108 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3292 Post(s)
Liked 1,230 Times in 908 Posts
Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
I'd bet against it. Don't discount the fact that there are some really good riders in the world, and they know how to go fast in all situations. Even when you think you should be faster (on paper) they can still leave you in the dust.
I've been messing around with the Kreuzotter calcuator: Bicycle Speed (Velocity) And Power Calculator
Pretty hard to beat a tandem on a good descent, especially ours, with dual aerobars and flat backs. The calculator says we should be as fast as a low-rider.

OTOH, topping out at 44 means it's not steep, so the big gear is probably the way to go and it's just a gear and power issue, like you say. The OP doesn't mention the gradient.

I don't draft vehicles. They have more rubber on the road than I do.
On the descents I was referring to, we are a lot faster than that, just coasting. As it is said, never pass a tandem near the crest of a hill. We hit 44 yesterday, sitting up and braking, alternating front and rear. I don't let it run anymore - it's not worth it.
__________________
Results matter
Carbonfiberboy is offline  
Likes For Carbonfiberboy:
Old 01-24-22, 02:28 PM
  #73  
tomato coupe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,940

Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1829 Post(s)
Liked 2,896 Times in 1,203 Posts
Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
I've been messing around with the Kreuzotter calcuator: Bicycle Speed (Velocity) And Power Calculator
Pretty hard to beat a tandem on a good descent, especially ours, with dual aerobars and flat backs. The calculator says we should be as fast as a low-rider.
I like that calculator, but it assumes everyone coasts downhill at the same speed once you know their height and weight and specify a generic bike type. Good riders know how to squeeze more speed out of a bike, even on simple descents.
tomato coupe is offline  
Old 01-24-22, 02:57 PM
  #74  
Racing Dan
Senior Member
 
Racing Dan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 2,028
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1190 Post(s)
Liked 247 Times in 164 Posts
Downhill KOM ... Is that even allowed on Strava? You can only win if you put your life on the line. Seems like a suicide mission.
Racing Dan is offline  
Old 01-24-22, 04:26 PM
  #75  
genejockey 
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
 
genejockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 9,967

Bikes: Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace

Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5377 Post(s)
Liked 5,640 Times in 2,877 Posts
Originally Posted by Racing Dan View Post
Downhill KOM ... Is that even allowed on Strava? You can only win if you put your life on the line. Seems like a suicide mission.
I just checked a couple segments, and yes, they DO still have downhill KOMs. What they DON'T have is downhill "Live" segments, so you can't track how you're doing relative to PR or KOM while going downhill.

EDIT: Though, really, a DOWNHILL "King Of the Mountain"? Shouldn't it be "King Of the Valley"?
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."

"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
genejockey is online now  
Likes For genejockey:

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.