Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Electric Bikes
Reload this Page >

Is 250W not enough?

Notices
Electric Bikes Here's a place to discuss ebikes, from home grown to high-tech.

Is 250W not enough?

Old 01-27-22, 07:32 PM
  #1  
NHKeith
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Is 250W not enough?

I am shopping for my first ebike and need to check my understanding of power needed. I live in NH so it is hilly. Back-of-the-envelope physics tells me a 250W motor will go up a 15% hill at only 3mph which suggests that isn't enough for this area. Am I right? This is leading me to exclude all the 250W ebikes even if they have 90Nm torque. I am looking for a mid drive that is a light as possible and have the 500W Priority Current, 350W Diamondback Union 1 and the Gazelle Medeo T10+ at the top of my list. These are the lightest I can find with enough power. Any thoughts on these or other suggestions around the $3k-$4k price point. Thanks
NHKeith is offline  
Old 01-27-22, 08:07 PM
  #2  
fooferdoggie 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 1,512
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 415 Post(s)
Liked 510 Times in 309 Posts
Originally Posted by NHKeith View Post
I am shopping for my first ebike and need to check my understanding of power needed. I live in NH so it is hilly. Back-of-the-envelope physics tells me a 250W motor will go up a 15% hill at only 3mph which suggests that isn't enough for this area. Am I right? This is leading me to exclude all the 250W ebikes even if they have 90Nm torque. I am looking for a mid drive that is a light as possible and have the 500W Priority Current, 350W Diamondback Union 1 and the Gazelle Medeo T10+ at the top of my list. These are the lightest I can find with enough power. Any thoughts on these or other suggestions around the $3k-$4k price point. Thanks
my bosch its 350 watts not the newest model but I can climb 20% grades at about 7 to 8 mph or faster. more so ifI put it on max assist. wife and I on our bosch powered tandem can climb the same hills. 15+% grade depending n how much you put into it you can do over 10mph no problem. the gazelle has the same torque as my bosch and I climb hills like crazy. I do a 17% grade every day at 9 to 10mph on the second level of assist and I dont have a huge amount of leg power. I only get 350 to 400 watts.
fooferdoggie is offline  
Old 01-27-22, 08:42 PM
  #3  
veganbikes
Clark W. Griswold
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: ,location, location
Posts: 9,714

Bikes: Foundry Chilkoot Ti W/Ultegra Di2, Salsa Timberjack Ti, Cinelli Mash Work RandoCross Fun Time Machine, 1x9 XT Parts Hybrid, Co-Motion Cascadia, Specialized Langster, Phil Wood Apple VeloXS Frame (w/DA 7400), R+M Supercharger2 Rohloff, Habanero Ti 26

Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2793 Post(s)
Liked 1,954 Times in 1,293 Posts
The Medeo T10+ would be the top of that list. The Diamondback is OK but a 400wh battery really, a little small for that price? Priority wouldn't really be on the list unless you find an actual brick and mortar shop that deals with Priority and can provide support for the motor. Maybe if the bike was 1k cheaper I would say maybe but still would want some motor support and I am unsure if Dapupu or whomever they are using is really going to support it, on their old bike when they used Bosch support was easy just about anywhere.

Keep in mind the difference between PEAK and NOMINAL power. A lot of cheaper motors and especially hub drives list the PEAK power to show off because that is what they think you want while most quality motor brands like Bosch list the NOMINAL power because their motors do the talking you ride it and you will be up that hill quite easily.

My Bosch Performance Line Speed motor gets me up hills easily and my bike is probably 70lbs at least with two batteries and a Rohloff set up. I really don't worry so much on that front. You will enjoy the Medeo and the Union has the right tire width but a smaller battery that I would want but over all looks similar to the Raleigh Redux and iZip Moda (and is actually probably that same bike truth be told knowing who owns them though they were using 500wh on those bikes)
veganbikes is offline  
Old 01-28-22, 09:21 AM
  #4  
kahn
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: northWET washington
Posts: 1,070
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 327 Post(s)
Liked 472 Times in 304 Posts
NHKeith

I guess I will ask if there's any chance you can test ride some e-bikes so you can get an idea of power/performance?
kahn is offline  
Old 01-28-22, 09:46 AM
  #5  
fooferdoggie 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 1,512
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 415 Post(s)
Liked 510 Times in 309 Posts
Originally Posted by kahn View Post
NHKeith

I guess I will ask if there's any chance you can test ride some e-bikes so you can get an idea of power/performance?
thats always best and myself I always recommend that instead of a model to buy. bosch has a ton of power as long as you willing to put effort into it.
fooferdoggie is offline  
Old 01-28-22, 11:34 AM
  #6  
2old
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: socal
Posts: 3,380
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 668 Post(s)
Liked 452 Times in 345 Posts
All good advice. I use my 2017 Yamaha-based Haibike off road and ascend the steepest hills that I can find in ECO level (two down from the top). You'll be surprised what 250w can do (especially when you realize they used that value to satisfy EU requirements).
2old is offline  
Old 01-28-22, 04:16 PM
  #7  
Pridedog
Gone Biking!
 
Pridedog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Indiana
Posts: 142

Bikes: Orbea Gain, Lynskey, Redline Conquest Disc, Bike Friday, Cannnondale T2 Tandem.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Liked 44 Times in 23 Posts
My 2 cents. A 250-350 W motor is for those folks that want a little assit in their bicycle ride. With 250W I can average 4 mph faster and climb much easier than I could on a bike without a motor. With these size motors you will need to use all your gears. IMOP a 500W and up motor gives you a motorbike and not a bicycle with assist. No work required just turn up the assist.
Pridedog is offline  
Old 01-28-22, 06:00 PM
  #8  
NHKeith
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by 2old View Post
All good advice. I use my 2017 Yamaha-based Haibike off road and ascend the steepest hills that I can find in ECO level (two down from the top). You'll be surprised what 250w can do (especially when you realize they used that value to satisfy EU requirements).
Good point. I looked at the Yamaha Cross Core which is listed at 250W nominal 70Nm and 500W peak and am wondering if that is really any less continuous power than other bikes listed as 350W nominal 500W peak. i.e. is this really a 350W motor that is listed at 250W to make the Europeans happy?

Last edited by NHKeith; 01-28-22 at 06:12 PM.
NHKeith is offline  
Likes For NHKeith:
Old 01-29-22, 05:21 PM
  #9  
late
Senior Member
 
late's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Southern Maine
Posts: 8,779
Mentioned: 126 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11146 Post(s)
Liked 1,038 Times in 760 Posts
Originally Posted by NHKeith View Post

Good point. I looked at the Yamaha Cross Core which is listed at 250W nominal 70Nm and 500W peak and am wondering if that is really any less continuous power than other bikes listed as 350W nominal 500W peak. i.e. is this really a 350W motor that is listed at 250W to make the Europeans happy?
They went over to Nm because there was no way American lawmakers would know what it meant

While it depends on what part of NH you're in, and how much assistance you need, but I have a 250 watt Shimano, and it's a bit wimpy for when the going gets steep.

Put it this way, I am thinking about getting a new ebike, and something stronger is on the list.

How about telling us if you're looking for a commuter, hybrid, drop bar or mtn bike. What the budget is, and the sorts of riding you plan on doing.

Oh, and what bikes you can get from dealers in your area. Gazelles are nice, but do you have a dealer in your area?
late is offline  
Likes For late:
Old 01-29-22, 07:45 PM
  #10  
tds101 
Wake up!!!
 
tds101's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Mastic Beach, NY
Posts: 3,503

Bikes: 9+,...

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 811 Post(s)
Liked 333 Times in 216 Posts
Check out the Ariel Rider Rideal,... A true 750 watt ebike. It gets stellar reviews. I'd have loved to purchase it, but I needed a folder (Qualisports Dolphin, on 350 watts, and it shows). For $899 the Rideal is a steal. https://arielrider.com/products/ride...8aAg3DEALw_wcB
__________________
If it wasn't for you meddling kids,...
tds101 is offline  
Likes For tds101:
Old 01-30-22, 05:16 AM
  #11  
NHKeith
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by late View Post
They went over to Nm because there was no way American lawmakers would know what it meant

While it depends on what part of NH you're in, and how much assistance you need, but I have a 250 watt Shimano, and it's a bit wimpy for when the going gets steep.
Put it this way, I am thinking about getting a new ebike, and something stronger is on the list.
How about telling us if you're looking for a commuter, hybrid, drop bar or mtn bike. What the budget is, and the sorts of riding you plan on doing.
Oh, and what bikes you can get from dealers in your area. Gazelles are nice, but do you have a dealer in your area?
My wife and I are in our 60s looking for recreational rides. We have Trek road bikes but haven't been riding for a while and are looking for something that doesn't need us to be in great shape. We also want bikes more relaxed so are looking at hybrid style. We are in southern NH but travel to the hillier areas of the state and VT. We want enough power to let the bike do much of the work if faced with a serious hill at the end of a ride. Budget is $3-4k. We have a local dealer who carries Gazelle, Diamondback, Bulls, Cannondale and others. I know a test ride is the best way to decide but I am not expecting to get in a thorough test ride at this time of year in NH so am trying to learn as much as possible before paying them a visit.
NHKeith is offline  
Old 01-30-22, 05:55 AM
  #12  
late
Senior Member
 
late's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Southern Maine
Posts: 8,779
Mentioned: 126 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11146 Post(s)
Liked 1,038 Times in 760 Posts
Originally Posted by NHKeith View Post

My wife and I are in our 60s looking for recreational rides. We have Trek road bikes but haven't been riding for a while and are looking for something that doesn't need us to be in great shape. We also want bikes more relaxed so are looking at hybrid style. We are in southern NH but travel to the hillier areas of the state and VT. We want enough power to let the bike do much of the work if faced with a serious hill at the end of a ride. Budget is $3-4k. We have a local dealer who carries Gazelle, Diamondback, Bulls, Cannondale and others. I know a test ride is the best way to decide but I am not expecting to get in a thorough test ride at this time of year in NH so am trying to learn as much as possible before paying them a visit.
We're going to NYC for a couple days in the Spring. I want to try that Priority, it may be listed as 500 watts, but I suspect it's more than twice as strong as my Shimano motor. Want to try a couple others in between pigging out on food.

You didn't mention Trek, my wife has the Verve 2, and loves it. They don't offer the best bang for buck, but it's been a good bike for us. But you would have to jump to the $4K Allant 7.

These bikes are usually stiff, something like a Thudbuster is a good idea.
late is offline  
Old 01-30-22, 06:36 AM
  #13  
NHKeith
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by late View Post
You didn't mention Trek, my wife has the Verve 2, and loves it. They don't offer the best bang for buck, but it's been a good bike for us. But you would have to jump to the $4K Allant 7.
These bikes are usually stiff, something like a Thudbuster is a good idea.
That goes back to my original question - I skipped Trek because they are 250W motors. I find the focus in some areas on torque misleading because it is power that gets you up a hill. Torque is modified by gearing to give force at the wheels and power is force times distance which is what really matters. However, I don't know the accuracy of the "nominal" power rating. I also don't know how the peak power gets limited. How long can a 500W peak motor deliver that power? In the end, I don't know is 250W nominal is enough but I am guessing it isn't.
NHKeith is offline  
Old 01-30-22, 08:36 AM
  #14  
late
Senior Member
 
late's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Southern Maine
Posts: 8,779
Mentioned: 126 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11146 Post(s)
Liked 1,038 Times in 760 Posts
Originally Posted by NHKeith View Post

That goes back to my original question - I skipped Trek because they are 250W motors. I find the focus in some areas on torque misleading because it is power that gets you up a hill. Torque is modified by gearing to give force at the wheels and power is force times distance which is what really matters. However, I don't know the accuracy of the "nominal" power rating. I also don't know how the peak power gets limited. How long can a 500W peak motor deliver that power? In the end, I don't know is 250W nominal is enough but I am guessing it isn't.
The Allant 7 is rated at 500 watts.

It also depends on what the way the motor is wired up. But, as a rule of thumb, once you get past the entry level motors, you're doing alright.

There are a couple limits on peak power, the important one is the battery. But if it gets hot, the computer will throttle back to protect the motor.

All you need is to do is look at Nm. The Trek Verve comes with a 40 or 50 Nm motor, but the Allant 7 comes with 85 Nm.


Last edited by late; 01-30-22 at 08:43 AM.
late is offline  
Old 01-30-22, 08:46 AM
  #15  
fooferdoggie 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 1,512
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 415 Post(s)
Liked 510 Times in 309 Posts
Originally Posted by tds101 View Post
Check out the Ariel Rider Rideal,... A true 750 watt ebike. It gets stellar reviews. I'd have loved to purchase it, but I needed a folder (Qualisports Dolphin, on 350 watts, and it shows). For $899 the Rideal is a steal. https://arielrider.com/products/ride...8aAg3DEALw_wcB
its hub motor and will not even come close to what a bosch can do.
fooferdoggie is offline  
Old 01-30-22, 09:59 AM
  #16  
tds101 
Wake up!!!
 
tds101's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Mastic Beach, NY
Posts: 3,503

Bikes: 9+,...

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 811 Post(s)
Liked 333 Times in 216 Posts
Originally Posted by fooferdoggie View Post
its hub motor and will not even come close to what a bosch can do.
That's fine. I just suggested it due to it being a fantastic, value priced ebike. Good luck with your search.
__________________
If it wasn't for you meddling kids,...
tds101 is offline  
Old 01-30-22, 10:33 AM
  #17  
kahn
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: northWET washington
Posts: 1,070
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 327 Post(s)
Liked 472 Times in 304 Posts
Originally Posted by NHKeith View Post
My wife and I are in our 60s looking for recreational rides. We have Trek road bikes but haven't been riding for a while and are looking for something that doesn't need us to be in great shape. We also want bikes more relaxed so are looking at hybrid style. We are in southern NH but travel to the hillier areas of the state and VT. We want enough power to let the bike do much of the work if faced with a serious hill at the end of a ride. Budget is $3-4k. We have a local dealer who carries Gazelle, Diamondback, Bulls, Cannondale and others. I know a test ride is the best way to decide but I am not expecting to get in a thorough test ride at this time of year in NH so am trying to learn as much as possible before paying them a visit.
I've got the Specialized aluminum Creo and while it definitely helps me climb hills, I still have to work at it. It does not do much of the work on really steep hills but it is there. I'm in the lowest gear and working at topping some of our hills. And there are one or two hills I've decided not to tackle although they are generally serious hills down to the beach and back UP. But on road rides I can push it over relatively steep hills but I'm also a bit overweight and old. I don't think my bike would do Mt Washington but you are clear on the other side of the continent.
kahn is offline  
Old 01-30-22, 12:47 PM
  #18  
late
Senior Member
 
late's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Southern Maine
Posts: 8,779
Mentioned: 126 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11146 Post(s)
Liked 1,038 Times in 760 Posts
late is offline  
Old 01-30-22, 01:34 PM
  #19  
shelbyfv
Senior Member
 
shelbyfv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: TN
Posts: 10,039
Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2970 Post(s)
Liked 3,753 Times in 1,931 Posts
Even a strong cyclist will suffer some on a 15% climb. So while a 250w motor might double your power, you still may not be able to cruise up the hills. Nobody ever has too much power so get the biggest motor you can within your budget. Also, a throttle will make hill starts much easier.
shelbyfv is offline  
Likes For shelbyfv:
Old 01-30-22, 01:46 PM
  #20  
fooferdoggie 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 1,512
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 415 Post(s)
Liked 510 Times in 309 Posts
Originally Posted by shelbyfv View Post
Even a strong cyclist will suffer some on a 15% climb. So while a 250w motor might double your power, you still may not be able to cruise up the hills. Nobody ever has too much power so get the biggest motor you can within your budget. Also, a throttle will make hill starts much easier.
a bosch will triple it you can get 300% boost 350 on the newer motors. bigger motors weight more and take bigger batteries.
I can climb this hill on my bosch. I can just do it on our e tandem. I can do 10 to 12mph on a 15% in with only the second level of assist. I can only do 300 to 400 watts and that gets me up 17% hills at 10mph. the hill with lights is 16% and the steep one is over 20% I want to check it again today. its 1200 feet of climbing in 1.5 miles to get to it and up it.


fooferdoggie is offline  
Likes For fooferdoggie:
Old 01-30-22, 02:33 PM
  #21  
kahn
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: northWET washington
Posts: 1,070
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 327 Post(s)
Liked 472 Times in 304 Posts
Originally Posted by shelbyfv View Post
Even a strong cyclist will suffer some on a 15% climb. So while a 250w motor might double your power, you still may not be able to cruise up the hills. Nobody ever has too much power so get the biggest motor you can within your budget. Also, a throttle will make hill starts much easier.
The other parameter that helped drive my decision - WEIGHT. I wanted a somewhat light road bike and that drove my decision. I need to carry it up five steps to my lot and another five steps into the house. I also want to be able to put it on a bike rack. Many e-bikes canNOT be lifted without having hernia surgery in the offing!

So I knew that the Specialized would not provide as much power as I would really want in some situations but it was a definite tradeoff. I do have to exert lots of oomph to top some hills.
kahn is offline  
Old 01-30-22, 06:24 PM
  #22  
NHKeith
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by late View Post
The Allant 7 is rated at 500 watts.
It also depends on what the way the motor is wired up. But, as a rule of thumb, once you get past the entry level motors, you're doing alright.
There are a couple limits on peak power, the important one is the battery. But if it gets hot, the computer will throttle back to protect the motor.
All you need is to do is look at Nm. The Trek Verve comes with a 40 or 50 Nm motor, but the Allant 7 comes with 85 Nm.
The Allant+ 7 uses a Bosch PerformanceLine CX which I thought was 250W nominal motor.
Torque on its own doesn't mean much. For example, you can stand on the pedals with the brakes on an produce huge torque on the crank of a stationary bike but it isn't generating any power. The torque will go down as soon as you start moving. Gaining altitude or increasing speed takes power. You can get the same power with high torque and high gearing or lower torque and faster rotations with lower gearing. I don't see how a 250W motor can get you up a hill faster than one with more power, regardless of the torque of the motors. Of course, what matters is the power that can be continuously delivered and that may not be the same as the stated "nominal" power.
NHKeith is offline  
Old 01-31-22, 04:50 AM
  #23  
late
Senior Member
 
late's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Southern Maine
Posts: 8,779
Mentioned: 126 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11146 Post(s)
Liked 1,038 Times in 760 Posts
Originally Posted by NHKeith View Post

The Allant+ 7 uses a Bosch PerformanceLine CX which I thought was 250W nominal motor.
Torque on its own doesn't mean much. For example, you can stand on the pedals with the brakes on an produce huge torque on the crank of a stationary bike but it isn't generating any power. The torque will go down as soon as you start moving. Gaining altitude or increasing speed takes power. You can get the same power with high torque and high gearing or lower torque and faster rotations with lower gearing. I don't see how a 250W motor can get you up a hill faster than one with more power, regardless of the torque of the motors. Of course, what matters is the power that can be continuously delivered and that may not be the same as the stated "nominal" power.
I don't know why, but I had never considered a Trek before my wife got one. Her bike impressed me. When I did look, I really liked the 7S low step.

As that video pointed out, advertised watts aren't an accurate indication of power. I haven't tried one yet, but my impression is that the motor is close to twice as strong as my Shimano. It also has a 36T bailout gear, which I like.

Anyway, if you get the chance to try one, let me know what you think. It's expensive, but really well made.
late is offline  
Old 02-02-22, 10:03 AM
  #24  
late
Senior Member
 
late's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Southern Maine
Posts: 8,779
Mentioned: 126 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11146 Post(s)
Liked 1,038 Times in 760 Posts
Originally Posted by late View Post

As that video pointed out, advertised watts aren't an accurate indication of power. I haven't tried one yet, but my impression is that the motor is close to twice as strong as my Shimano.
Volts x amps = watts.

That doesn't tell the whole story, of course. The cargo motors would be wound for max grunt, and the performance ones will be wound for speed.

You can get a better idea by digging up what the voltage and amperage is.

But, as always, the proof is in the pudding. I want to test ride a few, and that pretty much means going to NYC. But Boston has a good selection, they won't have R+M or Priority, but they do have a lot.

I like Belmont Wheelworks:
https://www.wheelworks.com/product-list/electric-1298/

LL Beans told me they were going to sell Gazelles, and there is a fairly steep hill just outside of town on the back way to Brunswick (just ask for directions). Prob ought to call first, to be sure they have stock in house.

I'm not entirely persuaded about integrated batteries. I have to take the battery off every time. I have heard some of those are a pain to get on and off. Something else you want to try for yourself. If you keep yours in a garage, you don't want to leave them there, lithium is nasty stuff when it burns. I don't want to freak you out, I've had mine for 3 riding seasons without incident. I did get a surplus ammo container that's in the cellar for winter storage.
late is offline  
Old 02-03-22, 11:44 AM
  #25  
fooferdoggie 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 1,512
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 415 Post(s)
Liked 510 Times in 309 Posts
when I bought my bike bulls gave me a choice of integrated or not on a bosch powered bike. glad I did not go with the integrated as I can use the same battery on our tandem. but most new bikes are not that way anymore. even the cheap bikes are integrated.
fooferdoggie is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.