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[chain] wrap your heads around this boys and girls...pretty cool

Old 11-18-21, 04:34 PM
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djb
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[chain] wrap your heads around this boys and girls...pretty cool

pretty darn fricken neat, talk about thinking sideways or outside of the box.
yes, probably really more appropriate for the mtb gang, but it's so cool, I had to share it with you lot.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/first-...9a42-123259340
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Old 11-18-21, 04:36 PM
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Ok. And it's better than a Rohloff because . . . . . ?
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Old 11-18-21, 04:56 PM
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havent a clue, just thought it was neat.
my guess is lighter and more efficient, but hey, like I said, I haven't a clue. just cool.
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Old 11-18-21, 05:02 PM
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Cool, but seems overly complex. Back in my MTBing days a broken derailleur from a stick in the spokes was a common occurrence. We'd make sure that one rider in the group carried a chain rivet tool. If someone snapped their derailleur we'd shorten their chain to fit one combo of chainring/cog and the victim would complete the ride in their single chosen gear. When home they would call 1-800-NASHBAR and order a new derailleur. It would arrive two days later. Often the dropout would also be bent and need straightening with a big adjustable wrench. Problem solved!

Last edited by BobG; 11-18-21 at 06:42 PM. Reason: sp
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Old 11-18-21, 05:13 PM
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The Principle of Parsimony sheds yet another tear for humanity.
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Old 11-18-21, 05:24 PM
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I agree, derailleurs work pretty darn well, for me anyway, but I still am impressed by someone who comes up with a totally different way of approaching a given, existing system

that's really why I put this up.
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Old 11-19-21, 03:32 AM
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And once again I am reminded of why I bought a Rohloff bike for the rougher terrain.




But for a full suspension bike, the Rohloff adds unsprung weight. The Pinion system solves that.
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Old 11-19-21, 06:44 AM
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Interesting, but

Interesting design but probably not going to go mainstream unless someone like Shimano copies/steals the design. My first thought was is it possibly to get my calf eaten by the upper chain ring. Also, how is the chain wear? Can really tell how much angle it has from the BB chain ring to the upper chain ring. But, yeah overall it is in interesting design. Good to see a young guy use his creative talents and engineering skills for this.
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Old 11-19-21, 07:54 AM
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I'll stick with my Rohloff. Mainly because the rohloff was insanely expensive and will hopefully last forever, but this looks cool too.
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Old 11-19-21, 08:11 AM
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Nice to see a kid (he was 24 when he started developing this) dive into something like this, patent(pending) it, and bring it to market. Not an easy task at any age, but tougher without 20 years of experience, and contacts, to lean back on.

I don't doubt (if**) Shimano or SRAM have designs like this on the books, but they'd decided whether to go to market based on the total sales opportunity minus costs and how much their other products lines will be cannibalized. The kid that developed this drive isn't working under the umbrella of "it can't be done". ""It can't be done, but I did it" is where new stuff comes from. (I'm retired from RD&E)

(** The if thing come from a practice of defensive patenting. If one of the majors had developed a design such as this they might well patent it as, even if it wasn't economical to commercialize themselves, a patent would prevent others from bringing it to market..except in China..)

The market & particularly young consumers (we know..the ones that marketers target as they can be "sold" and will spend the money..this isn't targeted, from a marketing standpoint, at the 50+ crowd) love something new they can rally around. Whether it actually solves a problem inherent in traditional designs is only part of its utility. The industry it creates is the real plus..lots of, primarily young, people will get involved in further development and manufacture of the drive system and bike frames to accommodate it. They'll learn something and have new ideas which sparks something else...all good. I hope they do well.

While this invention likely won't change the world, a Margaret Mead quote comes to mind, "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed individuals(or just one) can change the world. In fact, it's the only thing that ever has."

A pic posted may help as a reference..

Last edited by fishboat; 11-19-21 at 08:46 AM.
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Old 11-19-21, 08:43 AM
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Hmmm, yes, while quite ingenious, I think he's got an uphill battle with success. Needing a custom frame for it seems like a really big roadblock, and then convincing cyclists that parts will be available for a loooong time, etc.
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Old 11-19-21, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by djb View Post
.................................... I still am impressed by someone who comes up with a totally different way of approaching a given, existing system

that's really why I put this up.
As Woody Guthrie phrased it 'Any fool can make something complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple.'

Reminder to myself Have to listen to his records more often.

Of course the other one would be Albert Einstein's:
“Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler.”

Naturally there will always be people who follow the "Rube Goldberg Way"

Last edited by OldRailfan; 11-23-21 at 10:31 AM.
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Old 11-19-21, 04:00 PM
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This product isn’t intended for anyone on this board. There is a problem with long-travel full suspension downhill MTBs called “chain growth” - DH bikes these days are considered to work much better with very high rear suspension pivot points and a rearward contact patch track on compression. Problem is, with traditional cranks and chainline this produces a massive kick into the pedals on big hits, and worst case can pull chains apart unless you put a secondary freewheel in the crank, or switch to a high idler pulley like this that’s concentric with the upper pivot. This design seems to additionally move the derailleur inside the chain stay for protection, which makes sense for hardcore MTBs. Pinkbike is basically a hardcore MTB site at this point…

Another more conventional high pivot design that’s getting a lot of good MTB press: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/review...rail-bike.html

Plenty more examples in the MTB world if you cared to search for ‘high idler pulley’

nothing to do with touring unless your tours involve 60 foot hucks and a Red Bull helicopter hovering overhead and filming you

Last edited by fourfa; 11-19-21 at 04:06 PM.
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Old 11-19-21, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by fourfa View Post
This product isn’t intended for anyone on this board. There is a problem with long-travel full suspension downhill MTBs called “chain growth” - DH bikes these days are considered to work much better with very high rear suspension pivot points and a rearward contact patch track on compression. Problem is, with traditional cranks and chainline this produces a massive kick into the pedals on big hits, and worst case can pull chains apart unless you put a secondary freewheel in the crank, or switch to a high idler pulley like this that’s concentric with the upper pivot. This design seems to additionally move the derailleur inside the chain stay for protection, which makes sense for hardcore MTBs. Pinkbike is basically a hardcore MTB site at this point…

Another more conventional high pivot design that’s getting a lot of good MTB press: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/review...rail-bike.html

Plenty more examples in the MTB world if you cared to search for ‘high idler pulley’

nothing to do with touring unless your tours involve 60 foot hucks and a Red Bull helicopter hovering overhead and filming you
absolutely. I've never even ridden a dual suspension bike, let alone having any amount of offroad talent to take advantage of hammering over stuff at speeds that make my eyes water watching vids of guys and gals with mucho talent and mucho cajones/bravery/nuttiness just fly through stuff that would have me stopping and walking down.

and yes, specific frames and etc all make this a neat idea, but would it be able take over any of the specific market? Probably not.
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Old 11-19-21, 06:40 PM
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Wrap your string head around this:

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Old 11-19-21, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by djb View Post
pretty darn fricken neat, talk about thinking sideways or outside of the box.
yes, probably really more appropriate for the mtb gang, but it's so cool, I had to share it with you lot.
absolutely neat and really keen, but.....about as suitable for touring as the oscar meyermobile would be for lunar exploration. shirley, it would look cool!

not sure how suitable for even moderately loaded touring with a 12-speed transmission. i imagine it would be great for commuting in new york or los angeles, not so great for touring in cambodia or mongolia. not when it can still take a couple days of riding to get to an area with cell reception, and not nowadays when it can take forever to get bog standard spare parts.

just a couple months ago we sent a priority ems letter from guangzhou (pop 15 million) to bangkok (pop 10 million) that took 4-1/2 weeks. the express return package took 6 weeks.

replacing drive parts will be a no-go, but at least if you've got the sense to mount it to a quality steel frame, any local village smithy should be able to repair a cracked frame and possibly bodge something together...........
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Old 11-19-21, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by tcs View Post
Wrap your string head around this:
Now that's something else. Thanks for sharing. Not really sure if this actually works, but certainly another example of someone getting a goofy idea and making it into an actual thing.
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Old 11-19-21, 09:11 PM
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Saddle, ya I know, I know.
but now you've put the image in my head of the hotdog truck driving around on the moon beside Tintins rocket.
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Old 11-20-21, 01:55 AM
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Originally Posted by djb View Post
Saddle, ya I know, I know.
but now you've put the image in my head of the hotdog truck driving around on the moon beside Tintins rocket.
https://i.pcmag.com/imagery/articles...size_1695x.jpg

"houston, we have a wiener."
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Old 11-20-21, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by randallr View Post
Ok. And it's better than a Rohloff because . . . . . ?
​​​​​​Maybe, it's lighter and expensive?
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Old 11-20-21, 05:16 PM
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Very neat, but what I really want to see is the video of the blindfold comparison test.
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Old 11-21-21, 05:13 AM
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Originally Posted by djb View Post
Not really sure if this actually works, but certainly another example of someone getting a goofy idea and making it into an actual thing.
StringBike. Been for sale for several years. Used on tours. Used in RAAM. Yeah, it works.
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Old 11-21-21, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by tcs View Post
StringBike. Been for sale for several years. Used on tours. Used in RAAM. Yeah, it works.
another tip of the hat to different thinking.
thanks. I hadn't actually looked it up before you wrote this.
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Old 11-21-21, 11:18 AM
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Not as complex but I have wanted to make a project bike with an IGH drive and a front derailer for a while now.

Rohloffs are nice but quite pricey. Instead, I could see a SA hub mated to a double or triple crank as an interesting alternative to 8ncrease gear range. All one would need extra is a chain tensioner. I've seen it done before in pics.

Experimenting is good.
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Old 11-21-21, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
Not as complex but I have wanted to make a project bike with an IGH drive and a front derailer for a while now.
....
IGH ranges from 3 up to 14 gears. (Or is there still a two speed IGH available?)

When I first got my Rohloff, I disliked how far apart each gear was, but quickly got used to the the 13 percent jump.

But I can see wanting a wider range of gears with an IGH that has a lot fewer gears. The gears on my old three speed are much farther apart from each other, that could benefit from closer gears.

If you pursue this further, keep in mind that some IGHs use a 135mm dropout spacing, some narrower. You will need to get the frame to match your hub. I tried to eyeball a caliper on my three speed, it appears to have a dropout spacing of about 115mm, but that also has a drum brake, not sure if the non-brake version is the same. And mine was built when inches instead of mm were the norm, so mine might be 4.5 inches.

I think an IGH with a rear derailleur makes more sense than front derailleur, unfortunately the Sram Dual Drive is no longer sold, but I am told that Sturmey Archer makes a similar hub. I have a Dual Drive on my folding bike, the IGH gives me 3 speeds, the cassette is eight speeds, so I have 24 gears.

What is your goal?
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