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Tire recommandation for a 150-200km challenge

Old 09-13-21, 02:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Branko D View Post
The big problems I had with Vredstein latex tubes was either getting pinched during install or afterwards, so you ride 1500km and bang it goes, without anything external puncturing it.

GP5000s are great tires, though, even tubed they were ridicilously reliable.
Yes, I read some explode their latex tube while inflating but I hope it won't happen while riding which would be extremely dangerous.. To me it really depends on the installation.

A few tips I read:
-> remove the original rim tape, degrease the rim, use tubeless tape (2 layers)
-> prepare the inside of the tire with baby powder
-> the area around the valve is critical -> a multi layer of tubeless tape + circular hole is needed

What comes to my mind is to deburr the edges from the spoke holes aswell. I don't like how sharp it feels and when you put pressure with your fingers it might damage the tape.

I like to learn by trial and error rather than based on what others say so I have to try it anyways . I'm convinced preparation is key here. I'll always keep a butyl tube as a spare though, just in case.

Edit: I might use butyl tubes as a first try with the new tires after I installed the tubeless tape on the rim. It should help to put pressure on it so that the fit of the tape is adequate with the rim. Afterwards I'll remove the butyl tube, inspect everything, make the corrections if needed and just go for the latex tube. Let me know how this sounds for you.

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Old 09-13-21, 03:23 AM
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For me the pinching would occur somehere in the middle of the tube between rim and tyre, on a tubeless designed wheel without rim tape or spoke holes. Didn't use any powder which might have been a mistake. The flats weren't dangerous on the road, but if it happened on a fast descent, yes, that could be.

I did notice a (positive) difference in ride feel between Vredestein latex and butyl, but the issues with the tubes led me to go tubeless.
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Old 09-13-21, 03:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Branko D View Post
For me the pinching would occur somehere in the middle of the tube between rim and tyre, on a tubeless designed wheel without rim tape or spoke holes. Didn't use any powder which might have been a mistake. The flats weren't dangerous on the road, but if it happened on a fast descent, yes, that could be.

I did notice a (positive) difference in ride feel between Vredestein latex and butyl, but the issues with the tubes led me to go tubeless.
Did you pre-inflate the latex inner tube before installation, just to make sure its shape fits the inside of the tire?
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Old 09-13-21, 03:39 AM
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Yes.

My thinking is that the tube just migrated somehow under the bead. I mean, otherwise it would self destruct right away which happened once I wasn't extra careful.

It ia probably due to Vredestein latex tubes being super thin, supple and flexible. I can't see the much thicker Michelin latex tubes doing the same.
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Old 09-13-21, 04:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Branko D View Post
Yes.

My thinking is that the tube just migrated somehow under the bead. I mean, otherwise it would self destruct right away which happened once I wasn't extra careful.

It ia probably due to Vredestein latex tubes being super thin, supple and flexible. I can't see the much thicker Michelin latex tubes doing the same.
Yep, light latex tubes are quite a hassle to install apparently. I have 3 latex tubes just in case but I'll take my time for sure. They're not cheap either. I had an hesitation with TPU tubes just to try them out but it seems latex provides a better feel so I opted for them. Either way I'll provide a feedback on this topic.
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Old 09-13-21, 07:40 AM
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If the tube is under the bead just right, it can go for quite a while before it pops, at least with butyl tubes. I speak from the sad experience of this happening on the first day of a 1200k, which resulted in me getting way behind. I had changed tires so I would be less likely to get a flat. I am not sure I believe latex are any more prone to this than butyl.
There is no doubt that latex tubes will extrude into some pretty tight spaces. I have never used them in clinchers though. At least there should be some contrast with the tire, a bubble of butyl tube under the bead can be really difficult to see sometimes.

Even though they are very expensive, the urethane tubes looked attractive to me. Then I found out they have a lot of problems, heat for one.

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Old 09-13-21, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
If the tube is under the bead just right, it can go for quite a while before it pops, at least with butyl tubes. I speak from the sad experience of this happening on the first day of a 1200k, which resulted in me getting way behind. I had changed tires so I would be less likely to get a flat. I am not sure I believe latex are any more prone to this than butyl.
There is no doubt that latex tubes will extrude into some pretty tight spaces. I have never used them in clinchers though. At least there should be some contrast with the tire, a bubble of butyl tube under the bead can be really difficult to see sometimes.

Even though they are very expensive, the urethane tubes looked attractive to me. Then I found out they have a lot of problems, heat for one.
Yep, latex demands caution and thin latex extra caution indeed. As you said they are easy to distinguish from the tire thanks to their bright colors and if you carefully check that the tube isn't pinched between the rim and the tire before inflating then you should be good to go.

An other inconvenience of latex is related with the heat generated by rim brakes. On hard descents friction can produce so much heat that it can lead to a flat aswell. The other option is to go for a lighter butyle tube like a supersonic from Conti.
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Old 09-13-21, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
If the tube is under the bead just right, it can go for quite a while before it pops, at least with butyl tubes. I speak from the sad experience of this happening on the first day of a 1200k, which resulted in me getting way behind. I had changed tires so I would be less likely to get a flat. I am not sure I believe latex are any more prone to this than butyl.
There is no doubt that latex tubes will extrude into some pretty tight spaces. I have never used them in clinchers though. At least there should be some contrast with the tire, a bubble of butyl tube under the bead can be really difficult to see sometimes.

Even though they are very expensive, the urethane tubes looked attractive to me. Then I found out they have a lot of problems, heat for one.
Are you following that thread on TPU tubes on the 650B group as well? With how much I brake, my interest didn't last long either.
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Old 09-13-21, 12:23 PM
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I saw it there, but I lost interest a couple of months ago when I found out more about those tubes. Not being able to tolerate heat is a deal killer, but there was a list of things about them that I didn't like. Not being able to patch, having fragile valve attachments and I think there are more I forget.

Not having punctures is great, but having a blowout going down a mountain is probably the worst kind of flat.
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Old 09-13-21, 03:12 PM
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Ok so the installation went flawless.

What I did:
followed this vid:
- deburr the edges of all the spoke holes
- went for 21mm Schwalbe tubeless tape which is the same size as the original rim tape (which I removed, of course) -> it fits my 17mm width rims perfectly
- used a blowdryer to soften the tape while applying on the rim and avoid bubbles (I hadn't any)
- used a patch of gorilla tape at the valve entry before perforating it with a big needle and install the valve (no cutter for me to keep the hole round)-> I did the test of perforating a piece of Schwalbe tape and it tend to tear a bit so I made it stronger with a tape which has a weft already
- use a headlamp (trust me, it helps).

What I didn't do:
- use a standard butyl tube first with the tubeles tape installed to help making the tape stick without bubbles -> wasn't needed with the Schwalbe tape + hair dryer
- use 2 layers of tape -> I used one layer only- because it's really thick and Schwalbe states 2 layers are not needed
- use baby powder -> there was enough on the latex tube and the inside of the GP5000 tire is very slippery already
- use any tool to mount the tire (to keep the tube safe). I had no problem whatsoever to mount the GP5000 on the rim

To me the main thing is to inflate the tire very slowly and keep an eye at the bead and make sure the tube isn't trapped under it. I honestly thought it would be more complicated based on everything I read so it's worth trying it by yourself. Now I'll see how it holds up and will let you know if I didn't fall of a cliff because my tubes popped.

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Old 09-14-21, 12:07 PM
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Good video. I cringe (and plug my ears) when I see someone stuff a flat tube into a tire, pry the rest of the tire on with levers, and start pumping back up to 100psi.
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Old 09-14-21, 02:23 PM
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I didn't watch all of it. Interesting the tire went on easy for him, I have seen people really struggle with those. But he did pull the slack in the bead around to the valve.
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Old 09-16-21, 07:54 AM
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Something no one ever talks about now... But if you are going to use tubes, use Tire Talc. In the tire, on the tube. It reduces so many tube issues, from pinched flats to foreign object flats.
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Old 09-18-21, 07:01 AM
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I'll try to go in further details about the installation and how to avoid pinching. The video shown above is one of the most explicit on youtube but if you still struggle maybe you could follow the tips which helped me:

Do NOT end the last bit of tire bead installation at the valve itself but just 10cm or so away from it.The reason being this is precisely the location where the risk of pinching is the highest because there is a more rigid piece around the bottom of the valve which makes it more difficult to place the beads of the tire between the rim and the tube. If you finish at this place you will struggle not to pinch the tube. So, just before installing the last bit of tire bead on the rim just remove a bit of air from the tube and push on the valve slightly. This will allow the base of the valve to detach from the rim on the inside and give some room for the tire to sit against the rim. Make sure by a visual check that the tire beads are around the valve and not on the tube (this is the single most important check to make). Then, put slightly more air in the tube (just a tad), and let the bottom of the valve sit correctly by doing so. Finish by installing the last bit of the tire bead under the hook of the rim. If needed remove a bit of air again or place the beads all around in the center of the rim where the diameter is the smallest. This will give you some margin to install the bead. While inflating the tube for this 1st time I would suggest to proceed progressively: inflate the tube just enough so that it takes it shape, push the tube gently in the tire, install the beads, deflate slightly if needed, check around the rim for pinching, re-inflate the tube a bit and do the same again until you can't see the rim tape by pushing on the tire anymore. In no case you should be able to see the tube. A last thing: you can use plastic tire levers as soon as you don't put them under the beads of the tire but just use them to push the bead from the outside. It helps on the last bit rather than using fingers.

I hope I'm clear, english isn't my 1st langage and I'm a beginner so take what I say with a grain of salt. But it worked for me. Concerning talc, I would not advice to use more than needed, it would be a mess when changing the tires in the rain and latex tubes come with talc as standard. This said you can put a small amount at the valve base, just to make sure this spot is well "lubricated' (talc acts basically as a dry lubricant).

Edit: a last thing -> I don't think you would want to install a lightweight latex tube if you have a flat on the road -> I'd advice to keep a normal butyl tube wherever you go...

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Old 09-18-21, 10:30 PM
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Huh. This is all so odd to me. I'm a group ride leader and besides my own flats, I bet I've probably fixed over 100 flats of other riders over the past 25 years. It's simply not hard, though it does make a big difference to have strong thumbs. Of course one inflates the tube first, but just enough to make it round. I never use tools or talc. Too easy to pinch a tube with a tool and who has talc on the road? I always start the second bead at the valve, never ever end it there. When starting at the valve, one "stakes" the valve, that is pushes it into the tire so that the thick stuff surrounding the valve is definitely above the bead and never under it. When working your way around the wheel, popping in the second bead, push that bead toward the center of the rim. When you begin to apply pressure to that last bit of bead, drag your thumb along the tire bead, from valve to the hard part, slightly stretching the bead and probably doing that several times. Finally, just push the bead over the rim with your thumbs. All that said, some rims are easier than others, being slightly deeper in that center well. Since I've changed a lot of tires on a lot of rims, I know which rims are easier and use those.

I don't notice any difference between mounting a latex or butyl tube. It's all the same. And no, latex don't flat more easily than butyl. Might be the other way around. I noticed this thread still here, and having just mounted a latex tube in a 5000 tire on our tandem, thought I'd comment while the procedure was fresh in my mind. It was a butyl tube which flatted and flatted because the tire was worn thin in the center and got an injury there. Slow leak, didn't notice it, got to change it at home. As usual on the tandem, I mounted a 19-23 tube in a 28mm tire. Works fine and is easier. Used my last tire, have to order another pair of 5000s for the tandem.
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Old 09-19-21, 07:52 AM
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Ever since the advent of tubeless tires and tubeless ready rims, I have been putting the last bit of bead in place at the valve. Yes, you have to push the valve in so that the tube isn't stuck, but you often have to do that anyway. If you do it before seating the second bead, it isn't as likely to get stuck. The valve takes up some of the available slack that you need to get the bead over the rim, so if you finish up there you have more slack available to you. The only tires I have trouble mounting with my bare hands are really cheap ones, they have a lot of rubber that gets in the way. Hopefully nobody that reads this forum is forced to use something like that, but the same principles apply.


Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Huh. This is all so odd to me. I'm a group ride leader and besides my own flats, I bet I've probably fixed over 100 flats of other riders over the past 25 years. It's simply not hard, though it does make a big difference to have strong thumbs.
It seems to me that you answered your own question in your second sentence. If you have changed over 100 flats for other people, wouldn't it be nice if they had known how to change their own? I know I always wish the people that I changed flats for knew how to do it themselves. One time in the middle of the night on a 400k, someone I had been riding with had a flat and blew his first 2 tubes by trapping the tube under the bead. So I made him let me put his third and last tube in. I would have been happier just zoning out while he changed his flat than doing it for him. The other guy I was riding with also had a slow leak that he was fixing, but at least he knew what he was doing. I harbor a theory that people who ride old tires should know how to fix a flat and quickly, but I have seen that not to be the case. I usually intervene at the point I see them getting out the tire irons to put the tire back on.
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Old 09-19-21, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
Ever since the advent of tubeless tires and tubeless ready rims, I have been putting the last bit of bead in place at the valve. Yes, you have to push the valve in so that the tube isn't stuck, but you often have to do that anyway. If you do it before seating the second bead, it isn't as likely to get stuck. The valve takes up some of the available slack that you need to get the bead over the rim, so if you finish up there you have more slack available to you. The only tires I have trouble mounting with my bare hands are really cheap ones, they have a lot of rubber that gets in the way. Hopefully nobody that reads this forum is forced to use something like that, but the same principles apply.



It seems to me that you answered your own question in your second sentence. If you have changed over 100 flats for other people, wouldn't it be nice if they had known how to change their own? I know I always wish the people that I changed flats for knew how to do it themselves. One time in the middle of the night on a 400k, someone I had been riding with had a flat and blew his first 2 tubes by trapping the tube under the bead. So I made him let me put his third and last tube in. I would have been happier just zoning out while he changed his flat than doing it for him. The other guy I was riding with also had a slow leak that he was fixing, but at least he knew what he was doing. I harbor a theory that people who ride old tires should know how to fix a flat and quickly, but I have seen that not to be the case. I usually intervene at the point I see them getting out the tire irons to put the tire back on.
Thanks for reminding me . . . I have one TLR rim on one of my bikes. I hate it. It has wide shelves (whatever they're supposed to be called) on either side just below the bead. I know what they're for. They trap the bead of my tubed clinchers so hard that getting the bead off that shelf if a major impediment to a tire change. It really wants some sort of a tool and a hammer. Then the center well is so narrow that it's hard to get both beads down into it. I had to replace the rim tape with Velo Plugs to be able to change the tire by hand. Plus I HAVE trapped a latex tube between the bead and that shelf since it's inflation pressure that pops the bead up onto the shelf. There's not a smooth even surface for the tube to push against during inflation. I have to use butyl tubes on that rim.

The group ride issue is that I have to get the rider back on the road ASAP. So far, I've never ridden with a woman who could change her tire by hand, thus I apologize for being such a sexist about all that. It's fairly easy to get a tire off with tools, not damaging the tube and not a disaster if you do. Putting the tire back on, the tool to use would be a bead jack, no damage as it's just like doing it manually.

So women: carry both tire irons (plastic though) and a bead jack, though I suppose most of you have figured that out.
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Old 09-19-21, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post

So women: carry both tire irons (plastic though) and a bead jack, though I suppose most of you have figured that out.
Yes, I do carry plastic tire irons, a bead jack (the rims on one of my bikes have made me swear a LOT prior to buying a bead jack), and multiple other tools. My pet peeve (well one of them) is my female cycling friends who don't even carry a spare tube. Sheesh, I have everything I need to change out/fix flats and even replace a tire (after a really bad experience in the middle of Wisconsin where a new tire was the only way I was going to get back to my hotel).

I'm of the belief that ALL riders should have the equipment and skills to fix a flat.
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