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Tubeless... Is that all?

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Tubeless... Is that all?

Old 01-28-21, 10:15 AM
  #101  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
On a quasi-related topic, what are your thoughts on the industry apparently starting to abandon rims that are not also tubeless compatible?
Originally Posted by noodle soup View Post
Why does it matter? Non-tubeless tires work fine on hooked tubeless rims.
Personally I don't care but I do have a growing number of customers who have been insisting on builds that have rims with non-tubeless construction. These are people who, for whatever reason even after being shown and taught, can not seem to easily be able to mount or change tires on tubeless ready rims.

Those people will have to eventually get with the program and figure it out or simply just realize that now they need to take their bike to a shop whenever they want to put on new tires....kind of like how they can't figure out how to work on or maintain their hydraulic brakes now.....or troubleshoot their electronic systems...or work on their e-bikes. The industry is really doing a lot to help us shops out lately I guess. While it's kind of a shame that we have seemingly lost the "everyman" simplicity of the bicycle I do appreciate the level of tech that exists. Things change and move on. Kind of like how we don't get owners manuals for cars that include how to adjust the valves.

So to noodle soup 's point it doesn't matter in theory because you can run everything on the same rims (we ship every wheelset with tubeless tape on it to be used as a rim strip or for actual tubeless use - and it still seems to confuse people) but there are definitely people who do not appreciate the tubeless rim design and how much tighter it makes the tire and rim system.
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Old 01-28-21, 10:20 AM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by noodle soup View Post
Yesterday I helped a friend install her new GP5000 tires on a Light Bicycle AR46 wheelset. I managed to get the tire on without tools, but she needed to use a Pedro's lever to get the last 5 inches over the bead hook. They are harder to install than most tires, but with proper technique and a little hand strength, they aren't impossible.
^This. I just don't have much if any sympathy for people that have a difficult time mounting tires. You can conquer it with brute strength or by technique or a combination of both. This is no different than any other thing in cycling...like climbing. No one who climbs well has any sympathy for me when I go jetting out the back - some are natural climbers and some have become good climbers by training and technique. I was naturally blessed with meat claws as hands.

I have to admit I sometimes enjoy selling a buddy a set of conti's and having them come back swearing it's impossible to mount them on their wheels and how they broke 2 levers only to mount them by hand without a lever right in front of them while they are still telling their story about how impossible it is. Simple things entertain me.
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Old 01-28-21, 10:42 AM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
No, and I won't be any time soon - my current wheels are not compatible.

One guy in my club, upon his first tubeless foray, was so frustrated with trying to mount the Conti to his Ardennes that he gave up and went back to tubes. I never did get a crack at helping him, but they may still be around... Another club member, a short time after, had no issue mounting his new GP5Ks and razzed the first guy when he heard about the troubles.
Originally Posted by noodle soup View Post
Yesterday I helped a friend install her new GP5000 tires on a Light Bicycle AR46 wheelset. I managed to get the tire on without tools, but she needed to use a Pedro's lever to get the last 5 inches over the bead hook. They are harder to install than most tires, but with proper technique and a little hand strength, they aren't impossible.

@WhyFi Please continue to shame your friend that gave up.
Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
^This. I just don't have much if any sympathy for people that have a difficult time mounting tires. You can conquer it with brute strength or by technique or a combination of both. This is no different than any other thing in cycling...like climbing. No one who climbs well has any sympathy for me when I go jetting out the back - some are natural climbers and some have become good climbers by training and technique. I was naturally blessed with meat claws as hands.

I have to admit I sometimes enjoy selling a buddy a set of conti's and having them come back swearing it's impossible to mount them on their wheels and how they broke 2 levers only to mount them by hand without a lever right in front of them while they are still telling their story about how impossible it is. Simple things entertain me.
LOL, totally true. Psimet, and Noodle, would love to know what technique you are using. While I don't have meathooks for hands, I've spent well over 30 years in the industry in some fashion, used to build wheels as a kid for Marinoni, help change all tubes when on group rides, etc. I've been on Tubeless since 2013 and these dang tires are the only ones that have given me grief. I always need to use a lever, and my "technique" for whatever that's worth must be so useless that even with a lever causes me to use words that I'm sure have never been uttered before... This last one took me almost 15 minutes to mount onto the rim, used soap and water, etc.
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Old 01-28-21, 10:47 AM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
I have to admit I sometimes enjoy selling a buddy a set of conti's and having them come back swearing it's impossible to mount them on their wheels and how they broke 2 levers only to mount them by hand without a lever right in front of them while they are still telling their story about how impossible it is. Simple things entertain me.
+1

Years ago I worked at a shop that had a 20 something girl, who worked on weekends. Part of her job was to fix flats, and replace tires while the customer waited. We all enjoyed watching the lazy cyclists be emasculated by a 100lb "little girl".

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Old 01-28-21, 10:54 AM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
This is my gauge -- how does it prevent me from using any other pump?



I tried the Silca calculator. It recommended pressures a bit lower than I had already settled on. I'm glad you like the calculators and find them useful, but a little online research combined with a little bit of experimentation easily got my psi where it works best for me...And I had gotten there before these calculators were on the 'net.
It doesnít prevent you from using any other pump. My comment was specifically aimed at pumps with a built in mechanical gauge. If that wasnít clear, my apologies.

But you still have the same problem with any gauge unless itís calibrated. You wind up living in your own little world with regards to tire pressure and you have no way to correlate to anything external. It thatís ok, then fine. Doesnít work for me because I want to be able to replicate it with the several pumps I have and with others with whom I ride. I also want to be able to compare results with others. I canít do that with an uncalibrated gauge.

So, look - itís not worth the argument. If you find that works for you, great. It doesnít work for me and it drives me nuts if I canít replicate the pressure across my pumps and bikes and I donít want to have to carry around my gold standard gauge all the time either.

J.
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Old 01-28-21, 11:12 AM
  #106  
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If you don't have an accurate pressure gauge, then a pressure calculator program is of no value. The gauge on my old pump was off by quite a bit, so I was using a significantly lower pressure than I thought. Calibrating my old pump was worth the effort.
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Old 01-28-21, 11:19 AM
  #107  
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Why not just mess around w/ pressure til you figure out what works best for you? Why bother w/ all these conflicting pressure calculators? Are people so unsure of their ability to make a decision they can't figure out what they like best and have to rely on someone else to tell them? I guess it might make sense for a starting point but most people seem to have an idea of that as they've been riding for a least a little while.
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Old 01-28-21, 11:23 AM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by JohnJ80 View Post
It doesnít prevent you from using any other pump. My comment was specifically aimed at pumps with a built in mechanical gauge. If that wasnít clear, my apologies.

But you still have the same problem with any gauge unless itís calibrated. You wind up living in your own little world with regards to tire pressure and you have no way to correlate to anything external. It thatís ok, then fine. Doesnít work for me because I want to be able to replicate it with the several pumps I have and with others with whom I ride. I also want to be able to compare results with others. I canít do that with an uncalibrated gauge.

So, look - itís not worth the argument. If you find that works for you, great. It doesnít work for me and it drives me nuts if I canít replicate the pressure across my pumps and bikes and I donít want to have to carry around my gold standard gauge all the time either.

J.
Originally Posted by DaveSSS View Post
If you don't have an accurate pressure gauge, then a pressure calculator program is of no value. The gauge on my old pump was off by quite a bit, so I was using a significantly lower pressure than I thought. Calibrating my old pump was worth the effort.
I'm genuinely curious, since I did some research online before choosing the gauge that I pictured above, and never came across "calibrated" gauges for bike tires. Is this something you purchase, or is there some standard way of calibrating a gauge?
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Old 01-28-21, 11:24 AM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by Eric F View Post
I do notice a difference. It's not OMG!!! dramatic, but there is some extra smoothness and sure-footedness going on...at least in my brain
GP5K 28mm will be a real difference over 23ís.
GP5K 32mm will blow your mind.
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Old 01-28-21, 11:27 AM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by hsuBM View Post
GP5K 28mm will be a real difference over 23ís.
GP5K 32mm will blow your mind.
I'm not sure I can get a 28 on my bike. Definitely not a 32.
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Old 01-28-21, 11:57 AM
  #111  
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Originally Posted by Eric F View Post
I'm not sure I can get a 28 on my bike. Definitely not a 32.
Even with the smaller sizing of the GP5k (relative to the GP4k II) in mind?
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Old 01-28-21, 12:03 PM
  #112  
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Originally Posted by robbyville View Post
LOL, totally true. Psimet, and Noodle, would love to know what technique you are using. While I don't have meathooks for hands, I've spent well over 30 years in the industry in some fashion, used to build wheels as a kid for Marinoni, help change all tubes when on group rides, etc. I've been on Tubeless since 2013 and these dang tires are the only ones that have given me grief. I always need to use a lever, and my "technique" for whatever that's worth must be so useless that even with a lever causes me to use words that I'm sure have never been uttered before... This last one took me almost 15 minutes to mount onto the rim, used soap and water, etc.
My technique is to get one side hooked in the center channel, then slowly work the opposite side while simultaneously pulling (or pushing - depending on how you are oriented) each side as I work the bead over the rim....but before that, I make sure to center the "Schwalbe" logo over the valve stem. LOL
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Old 01-28-21, 12:04 PM
  #113  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Even with the smaller sizing of the GP5k (relative to the GP4k II) in mind?
Looking at the 25mm GP5ks on my bike now, there's not much room under the brake arch for something significantly bigger. 28s, maybe. 32s, nope. Being that I just put a new pair of 25s on last week, it's not going to be any time soon that I will think about something different.
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Old 01-28-21, 12:10 PM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
I'm genuinely curious, since I did some research online before choosing the gauge that I pictured above, and never came across "calibrated" gauges for bike tires. Is this something you purchase, or is there some standard way of calibrating a gauge?
I just happen to own several brand new, high quality liquid filled pressure gages that eventually will get used for monitoring water pressure in a large irrigation system. I made a manifold with two of those gages and a presta valve mounted to it, so I could use my 30+ year old Silca pump to pressurize the manifold. My two new gauges agreed within 2 psi at 80, but my old pump gage registered about 8 psi higher, so it's reasonable to assume the the old gauge was not accurate. I did another check, with a third gauge and got an even closer agreement. The 6 bar or 88 psi mark is now my reference for 80. I always use my pump gauge to measure tire pressure, when I top them off, before a ride.

The Winters brand gauges that I have seem to be well made and you can get a 0-100 or 0-160 psi range. I have one of each. Winters claims plus or minus 1.5% accuracy, while some cheaper gages are plus or minus 3%.

https://www.amazon.com/Winters-Stain...1856497&sr=8-3
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Old 01-28-21, 12:26 PM
  #115  
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Originally Posted by robbyville View Post
LOL, totally true. Psimet, and Noodle, would love to know what technique you are using. While I don't have meathooks for hands, I've spent well over 30 years in the industry in some fashion, used to build wheels as a kid for Marinoni, help change all tubes when on group rides, etc. I've been on Tubeless since 2013 and these dang tires are the only ones that have given me grief. I always need to use a lever, and my "technique" for whatever that's worth must be so useless that even with a lever causes me to use words that I'm sure have never been uttered before... This last one took me almost 15 minutes to mount onto the rim, used soap and water, etc.
How does one learn to breathe?

Don't know if I can talk you through it but in essence you HAVE to get both beads into the depth of the center channel and you have to use a tubeless tape as a super thin rim strip. You can't use velox or even one of our old style nylon rim strips. Then you work it around like normal. I didn't say I never use a lever. Using a lever is not cheating. I just have a tendancy to be able to put on tires without levers that others have been struggling with even though they are using levers. In most cases a lever used once or twice in the last 6-8 inches of mounting the tire is usually all it takes. Use a good lever you feel comfortable with. I have changed over the years but right now I just use pedros levers. They work. I also have a box full of levers I keep on the work bench as they all have different useful shapes.
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Old 01-28-21, 12:31 PM
  #116  
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Originally Posted by Eric F View Post
Looking at the 25mm GP5ks on my bike now, there's not much room under the brake arch for something significantly bigger. 28s, maybe. 32s, nope.
that sucks.
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Old 01-28-21, 12:33 PM
  #117  
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Originally Posted by DaveSSS View Post
I just happen to own several brand new, high quality liquid filled pressure gages that eventually will get used for monitoring water pressure in a large irrigation system. I made a manifold with two of those gages and a presta valve mounted to it, so I could use my 30+ year old Silca pump to pressurize the manifold. My two new gauges agreed within 2 psi at 80, but my old pump gage registered about 8 psi higher, so it's reasonable to assume the the old gauge was not accurate. I did another check, with a third gauge and got an even closer agreement. The 6 bar or 88 psi mark is now my reference for 80. I always use my pump gauge to measure tire pressure, when I top them off, before a ride.

The Winters brand gauges that I have seem to be well made and you can get a 0-100 or 0-160 psi range. I have one of each. Winters claims plus or minus 1.5% accuracy, while some cheaper gages are plus or minus 3%.

https://www.amazon.com/Winters-Stain...1856497&sr=8-3
I used to work in heavy metal fabrication. Extensive machining. I also set up gauge rotation and calibration systems for multiple plants. My experience there showed me that the vast majority of gauges in use every day are wildly out of calibration and weren't even close on day one.

At one point I decided to start getting an idea of how far off all the different pumps and inflators I used in the shop were when compared to a calibrated gauge I had around for specific work. I saw variances of +-20psi.

This is why I always tend to blow up on threads where people sit and try and argue that someone else is using the "wrong" pressure because it is 5 psi or less off of what they believe they should run. Pressure discussions without a basic understanding of our lack of ability to read accurate pressures is kind of pointless.

This is again why I posted way up above how I stopped giving pressure numbers as advice at races. I simply ask what they have been running and offer advice on which direction and how far to move that number...knowing full well they will use the same technique and pump they always use.

I have watched mechanics and riders argue about 2 psi at UCI races when they are using different gauges. Always makes me laugh. Then I have watched Katie Compton run in and tell Mark how to change pressure within 1 psi and known they are actually dialed and correct.

Pressure discussion in here are kinda pointless IMHO
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Old 01-28-21, 12:37 PM
  #118  
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Originally Posted by hsuBM View Post
GP5K 32mm will blow your mind.
Or not ...
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Old 01-28-21, 01:11 PM
  #119  
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Originally Posted by hsuBM View Post
that sucks.
Not at all. I'm plenty happy with 25s. I like the little bit of extra comfort compared with the 23s I was running for the last 20+ years, but a super-cushy ride is not my goal.
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Old 01-28-21, 01:52 PM
  #120  
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
How does one learn to breathe?

Don't know if I can talk you through it but in essence you HAVE to get both beads into the depth of the center channel and you have to use a tubeless tape as a super thin rim strip. You can't use velox or even one of our old style nylon rim strips. Then you work it around like normal. I didn't say I never use a lever. Using a lever is not cheating. I just have a tendancy to be able to put on tires without levers that others have been struggling with even though they are using levers. In most cases a lever used once or twice in the last 6-8 inches of mounting the tire is usually all it takes. Use a good lever you feel comfortable with. I have changed over the years but right now I just use pedros levers. They work. I also have a box full of levers I keep on the work bench as they all have different useful shapes.
+1 to the Pedro's levers. I have a ton of levers, but the Pedro's yellow levers work better than any other lever I've seen.
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Old 01-28-21, 02:02 PM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
How does one learn to breathe?

Don't know if I can talk you through it but in essence you HAVE to get both beads into the depth of the center channel and you have to use a tubeless tape as a super thin rim strip. You can't use velox or even one of our old style nylon rim strips. Then you work it around like normal. I didn't say I never use a lever. Using a lever is not cheating. I just have a tendancy to be able to put on tires without levers that others have been struggling with even though they are using levers. In most cases a lever used once or twice in the last 6-8 inches of mounting the tire is usually all it takes. Use a good lever you feel comfortable with. I have changed over the years but right now I just use pedros levers. They work. I also have a box full of levers I keep on the work bench as they all have different useful shapes.
I understand and appreciate the answer. I have no problem when I need to use a lever, I have no pride! But even with the lever I have challenges with the Conti's. I use proper tubeless tape, usually Stan's. Next time I have to mount them I'll see if I can use some of the ideas I've received.
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Old 01-28-21, 02:08 PM
  #122  
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Originally Posted by robbyville View Post
I understand and appreciate the answer. I have no problem when I need to use a lever, I have no pride! But even with the lever I have challenges with the Conti's. I use proper tubeless tape, usually Stan's. Next time I have to mount them I'll see if I can use some of the ideas I've received.
I don't think that it's going to help you with fitting tires, but the next time you re-tape, track down some DT Swiss rim tape - it's a little more expensive and a little harder to get your hands on, but it goes on so much better and is very much worth it.
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Old 01-28-21, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
I used to work in heavy metal fabrication. Extensive machining. I also set up gauge rotation and calibration systems for multiple plants. My experience there showed me that the vast majority of gauges in use every day are wildly out of calibration and weren't even close on day one.

At one point I decided to start getting an idea of how far off all the different pumps and inflators I used in the shop were when compared to a calibrated gauge I had around for specific work. I saw variances of +-20psi.
That's why I used three new gauges for comparison. All three read within 2psi, which is relatively good agreement. My initial use of 70-75 psi in my 28mm tubeless tires, before calibrating the pump gauge was actually 62-67, which is what some of the pressure calculators recommend. I certainly won't go any lower.
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Old 01-28-21, 03:16 PM
  #124  
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I always use the same pump and could care a hoot how accurate it is. I just pump them up until I have ~15% deflection and fine tune from there for conditions. For me that's 55/50 on 25's and never pinch. I note the pressure and use that. Blackburn track pump.
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Old 01-28-21, 03:18 PM
  #125  
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Originally Posted by DaveSSS View Post
That's why I used three new gauges for comparison. All three read within 2psi, which is relatively good agreement. My initial use of 70-75 psi in my 28mm tubeless tires, before calibrating the pump gauge was actually 62-67, which is what some of the pressure calculators recommend. I certainly won't go any lower.
Understood. My comment is geared more towards anyone arguing about pressure who hasn't taken the time to check the accuracy of the gauges they are using.
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