Notices
General Cycling Discussion Have a cycling related question or comment that doesn't fit in one of the other specialty forums? Drop on in and post in here! When possible, please select the forum above that most fits your post!

32 vs 36 Spokes?

Old 03-16-21, 09:06 AM
  #51  
79pmooney
A Roadie Forever
 
79pmooney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 10,213

Bikes: (2) ti TiCycles, 2007 w/ triple and 2011 fixed, 1979 Peter Mooney, ~1983 Trek 420 now fixed and ~1973 Raleigh Carlton Competition gravel grinder

Mentioned: 110 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3295 Post(s)
Liked 2,013 Times in 1,311 Posts
Originally Posted by Moe Zhoost View Post
The OP's only concern was the drag on spokes spinning about an axis. Here you go adding the reality of the additional factors like movement of the bike on the road to the argument. Geez, I hope this thread doesn't get too serious.
Yes, you are right. I stand corrected. i was thinking TT and road speed. This thread is about racing the wheels on a bike stand. (Where are we going to find a stand for Didi's bike?)
79pmooney is offline  
Old 03-16-21, 10:58 AM
  #52  
Bill in VA
Senior Member
 
Bill in VA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 715

Bikes: Current: 2016 Bianchi Volpe; 1973 Peugeot UO-8. Past: 1974 Fuji S-10-S with custom black Imron paint by Stinsman Racing of PA.

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 208 Post(s)
Liked 193 Times in 133 Posts
Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
This clearly explains why my ceiling fan has 5 blades instead of 30.
Or why mine has 3 blades...
Bill in VA is offline  
Old 03-16-21, 12:09 PM
  #53  
cbrstar
BMX Connoisseur
 
cbrstar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Canada
Posts: 774

Bikes: 1988 Kuwahara Newport, 1983 Nishiki, 1984 Diamond Back Viper, 1991 Dyno Compe

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 399 Post(s)
Liked 107 Times in 69 Posts
So here is a question is 36 spoke but done with titanium spokes lighter and better then 32 with steel spokes? I've heard 24 spoke wheels are more Aero but I also can't help but think it might be the shape of the rim.

In the early 90's I remember the 32 spoke craze hitting the BMX scene but people quickly realized that they could build a 36 spoke wheel lighter and stronger. But that's also when double walled rims started showing up but by then 32 spoke was already passé. The 32 spoke wasn't really transferred over to BMX but more so MTB.

old school HUTCH BMX articles 1986-87 (jjrbmx.com) I can't find the original article but..

Diamond Back Turbo Lite Rim (It was full of diamonds cut out of it) 27 oz, (I happen to know that the regular version was about 445 grams or 15.7oz and this one had Diamonds cut out) 13.5 oz =382.72 grams per rim
Spoke SRP titanium = 7 oz. I think it's safe to divide these by 2 = 99.22grams
Hub = Hutch aluminum with titanium axles 14oz (Pair) I think they listed these as a pair because the rear is obviously going to be heavier then the other. It's cheating but I'm going to divide it by two. 198.5 grams

= 680.44 grams per wheel or 1360.88 grams for the wheel set.

When I check the vintage Araya catalog BMXmuseum.com Reference / 1980-1995 Araya Catalogs Some of the road bike rims show a 10 gram difference between 24 and 36 spoke but the BMX ones seem to be rated the same.

I couldn't find 32h hubs with the weights listed. I used this site to calculate spoke weight. Spoke Weight Calculator | SpokeService | Canada's Bicycle Spoke Supplier

Rim = 455 grams
Spoke = 222.4grams (Saipan Race)
Hubs = 198.5 grams (I decided to use the same Hub they did though titanium axels were hard to get bitd.

= 875.9 gram which is 195.46 grams heavier.

One interesting thing about the spoke site is you can easily see the difference in weight between 32 and 36. And depending on the thickness of the spoke you can save up to approx. 30 grams.
cbrstar is offline  
Old 03-16-21, 02:43 PM
  #54  
urbanknight
Over the hill
 
urbanknight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 23,168

Bikes: Giant Defy, Specialized Allez, Raleigh Pursuit tandem

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 351 Post(s)
Liked 380 Times in 237 Posts
Originally Posted by msu2001la View Post
I'd just like to point out that these are definitely not sub 1500g 32 spoke wheels.

I know that it's entirely possible to build a sub 1500g 32 spoke wheelset, particularly for a rim brake setup, I just don't understand why anyone would do this.
A lightweight 32 spoke wheel is compromised on both ends of the spectrum. If you are chasing grams, there's little sense in building with extra spokes. If you are worried about strength, there's little sense in building with ultra-light parts.

You can put snow tires on a Corvette.
There can be reasons. Lightweight touring might be one. Wanting lightweight wheels you can run every day is another. The reason being, a broken spoke on a 32 or 36 spoke wheel will frequently allow you to continue riding on that wheel while a 16 or 20 spoke wheel will likely get horrible out of true and possibly even be a danger of the rim collapsing. I built my 28 spoke wheels for two reasons: 1) with daily riding, I wanted enough spokes to be able to ride home should something happen, and 2) that's the number of holes the hubs were that I got a killer deal on (I really wanted 24 on the front, but whatever). But yes, I understand your point.
__________________
It's like riding a bicycle
urbanknight is offline  
Old 03-16-21, 06:14 PM
  #55  
Reynolds 
Passista
 
Reynolds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 7,351

Bikes: 1998 Pinarello Asolo, 1992 KHS Montaña pro, 1980 Raleigh DL-1, IGH Hybrid, IGH Utility

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 787 Post(s)
Liked 481 Times in 275 Posts
Originally Posted by SurferRosa View Post
Sheldon taught me to use 32 in the front, 36 in the rear.
Or Raleigh's 32/40.
Reynolds is offline  
Old 03-16-21, 07:53 PM
  #56  
blue192
Senior Member
 
blue192's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 488

Bikes: Norco Scene 1, Khs Westwood, Jamis Allegro 3x

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 131 Post(s)
Liked 59 Times in 37 Posts
As someone with a bike that has 36 spokes and another with 32, my main concern is that the wheel is of sufficient quality to get me from point A to point B via route C. I suspect riders looking at wheels based on the aerodynamics are not using them to commute or a utilitarian purpose and instead racers and amateur time trial type of rider.
blue192 is offline  
Old 03-16-21, 08:20 PM
  #57  
Troul 
:D
 
Troul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Mich
Posts: 5,200
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked 1,565 Times in 1,083 Posts
Originally Posted by blue192 View Post
As someone with a bike that has 36 spokes and another with 32, my main concern is that the wheel is of sufficient quality to get me from point A to point B via route C. I suspect riders looking at wheels based on the aerodynamics are not using them to commute or a utilitarian purpose and instead racers and amateur time trial type of rider.
I couldn't find a 36H front & rear CF wheel set for a fair price that I was able to find the 24Hs
__________________
-Oh Hey!
Troul is offline  
Old 03-17-21, 01:04 AM
  #58  
cjenrick
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 409
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 177 Post(s)
Liked 127 Times in 94 Posts
lots of interesting info out there, this site covers a ton of new wheels>

https://www.hambini.com/testing-to-f...icycle-wheels/

highlights of above link>
  • Wheels that performed well were noticeably resistant to generating areas of turbulence
  • Wheels that performed well mitigated generated turbulence quite well
  • Wheels that performed well had a lower rotational drag compared to their competition
  • Wheels with a deeper rim section are generally more aerodynamic than shallow sections
  • The difference between wheels of a similar depth is very small and it would be difficult for a human to be able to detect this during riding
  • The difference between a low profile wheel and a deep wheel would be picked up by a human riding.
  • The FLO cycling and Hunt wheels performed badly, they appear to have been designed by individuals with a limited understanding of aerodynamics of rotating objects. As such they generated unnecessary separation and could not deal with the separated airflow
  • The Aerocoach disc and 75mm deep section front wheel showed quite interesting results. This wheel was essentially an aluminium wheel with a clip on fairing. At low to moderate speeds, the wheel performed reasonbly but as the speed was increased the wheel started to perform quite erraticaly. The front wheel construction is agriculturual and large gaps exist between the spokes and the non structural fairing. These gaps generated pressure disturbances and caused the flow to behave erratically. As the speed was increased, it’s performance became quite poor in comparison to the immediate competition and this was mainly due to the poor front wheel design. A picture of the problem is shown below

this site is also a fun read>

https://blog.silca.cc/part-5-tire-pr...d-aerodynamics

did you know that a worn tire can be a drag?


Last edited by cjenrick; 03-17-21 at 01:17 AM.
cjenrick is offline  
Old 03-17-21, 01:41 AM
  #59  
cjenrick
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 409
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 177 Post(s)
Liked 127 Times in 94 Posts
starting to understand how over inflation can actually slow you down,

as the tire becomes harder, your body starts to bounce around more, with rough pavement compounding the effect,

https://blog.silca.cc/part-4b-rollin...-and-impedance

"Impedance

Tom Anhalt was one of the first to take tires used in roller testing into the field to try and replicate data. What he found was quite a shock!

While the data matched at lower pressures, the real world data diverged somewhat dramatically from the roller data at higher pressures!

This divergence is the result of impedance losses overwhelming the system as the tire is over-inflated. Most interestingly, this initial test was done on 'good' asphalt, which really brings up questions about lower quality surfaces.

The new theory on Rolling Losses is that both Surface Impedance AND Casing Losses were adding together to create total rolling loss. "


cjenrick is offline  
Old 03-17-21, 01:49 AM
  #60  
cjenrick
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 409
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 177 Post(s)
Liked 127 Times in 94 Posts
no wonder they like the big tires and lower pressure at Paris Roubaix

"This theory predicts that below the Breakpoint pressure the system will be dominated by Casing Losses (though still affected by impedance) and at higher pressures the system will be dominated by Impedance Losses, though still affected by Casing Losses.'

cjenrick is offline  
Old 03-18-21, 08:40 AM
  #61  
Deepcherry
Off grid off road
 
Deepcherry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Spain
Posts: 190

Bikes: Corratec Xvert, Peugeot Origin 30, GT Outpost, Kona Cinder Cone ‘93 Specialized StumpJumper, Ritchey mtb

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Liked 107 Times in 66 Posts
Large wheel diameter would effect aerodynamics too- longer spokes create more drag.

Therefore a BMX wheel would be the best option
Deepcherry is offline  
Old 03-18-21, 10:16 AM
  #62  
Troul 
:D
 
Troul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Mich
Posts: 5,200
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked 1,565 Times in 1,083 Posts
wheel dish will change the efficiency based on purpose & environment conditions. ITE, I'd rather roll with the weight penalty of having more spokes than fight potential hazardous crosswinds.
__________________
-Oh Hey!
Troul is offline  
Old 03-18-21, 10:41 AM
  #63  
asgelle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 4,352
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 899 Post(s)
Liked 342 Times in 210 Posts
Originally Posted by Troul View Post
wheel dish will change the efficiency based on purpose & environment conditions.
Wheel dish is fixed by hub design; it can not be chosen to fit conditions. There are only two choices for wheel dish: correct or incorrect, and as long as it's correct has no effect on "efficiency" (whatever that is).
asgelle is offline  
Old 03-18-21, 11:56 AM
  #64  
urbanknight
Over the hill
 
urbanknight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 23,168

Bikes: Giant Defy, Specialized Allez, Raleigh Pursuit tandem

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 351 Post(s)
Liked 380 Times in 237 Posts
Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
"efficiency" (whatever that is).
I have been away for a long time, but do I recall correctly as you being an engineer? That might explain why you're a stickler for using the proper terms.
__________________
It's like riding a bicycle
urbanknight is offline  
Old 03-18-21, 11:59 AM
  #65  
asgelle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 4,352
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 899 Post(s)
Liked 342 Times in 210 Posts
Originally Posted by urbanknight View Post
I have been away for a long time, but do I recall correctly as you being an engineer? That might explain why you're a stickler for using the proper terms.
I would think that anyone, regardless of occupation, who communicates in either their professional or personal life would be in favor of clear language.
asgelle is offline  
Old 03-18-21, 12:10 PM
  #66  
urbanknight
Over the hill
 
urbanknight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 23,168

Bikes: Giant Defy, Specialized Allez, Raleigh Pursuit tandem

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 351 Post(s)
Liked 380 Times in 237 Posts
Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
I would think that anyone, regardless of occupation, who communicates in either their professional or personal life would be in favor of clear language.
"Clear" is not always the same as correct or precise. I am a music teacher, and much of what we explain is conceptual. Even if I knew precisely how many hundredths of a mm a trumpet player needed between their tongue and their upper palate in order to play a high C versus a low C, specifying that would do nothing for them. Telling them to "say Tee for the high C and Tah for the low C", and to "breath in to your stomach" will go much further, yet the player isn't actually speaking anything, nor are they taking air into their stomach.

Likewise, I think cyclists sometimes use terms that make sense conceptually, even if they are not exactly correct. "Pedal circles" is a common technique for pedaling efficiency (yes, I just had to use the term... couldn't resist), but no matter how good or bad your form is, you're pedaling circles because the cranks won't spin the pedals in any other pattern.

To a layman, "efficient" just means what we can sustain for a longer time period, or optimum for a level of exertion. We don't necessarily realize that the actual amount of energy consumed isn't the factor there, and honestly, we don't care. Regarding that other thread, I would be annoyed if someone told me, "60 RPM is the most efficient cadence... but you don't want to do that".

Last edited by urbanknight; 03-18-21 at 12:27 PM.
urbanknight is offline  
Likes For urbanknight:
Old 03-18-21, 12:18 PM
  #67  
Steamer
Zircon Encrusted Tweezers
 
Steamer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: high ground
Posts: 1,267
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 219 Post(s)
Liked 84 Times in 56 Posts
Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
Wind resistance is proportional to the square of velocity, not cube...
Correct, but power required to overcome wind resistance increases with the cube of speed. (P = FxV)
Steamer is offline  
Old 03-18-21, 01:54 PM
  #68  
Troul 
:D
 
Troul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Mich
Posts: 5,200
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked 1,565 Times in 1,083 Posts
Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
Wheel dish is fixed by hub design; it can not be chosen to fit conditions. There are only two choices for wheel dish: correct or incorrect, and as long as it's correct has no effect on "efficiency" (whatever that is).
My fault for the wrong word used, but I'm referring to the rim thickness. An 80mm rim will "cut" the air better when going straight when compared to a 30mm rim. That's comparing like materials used & quantity of spokes.
__________________
-Oh Hey!
Troul is offline  
Old 03-18-21, 02:33 PM
  #69  
rydabent
Senior Member
 
rydabent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Lincoln Ne
Posts: 9,316

Bikes: RANS Stratus TerraTrike Tour II

Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2647 Post(s)
Liked 850 Times in 495 Posts
I would still like to know the difference between a 32 spoke wheel and a 36 spoke wheel. Does anyone know.
rydabent is offline  
Old 03-18-21, 02:35 PM
  #70  
tomato coupe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,940

Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1829 Post(s)
Liked 2,896 Times in 1,203 Posts
Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
i would still like to know the difference between a 32 spoke wheel and a 36 spoke wheel. Does anyone know.
4.
tomato coupe is offline  
Likes For tomato coupe:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.