Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Bicycle Mechanics
Reload this Page >

Leaving single pawl in a 120pt Chosen hub for noise reduction

Notices
Bicycle Mechanics Broken bottom bracket? Tacoed wheel? If you're having problems with your bicycle, or just need help fixing a flat, drop in here for the latest on bicycle mechanics & bicycle maintenance.

Leaving single pawl in a 120pt Chosen hub for noise reduction

Old 09-24-21, 02:53 PM
  #26  
sysrq
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 197
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 104 Post(s)
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by HillRider View Post
As I see it you have two choices:

1. Buy an inherently quiet hub like a Shimano and learn the not-difficult art of adjusting cup-and-cone bearings every year or so.
2. Learn to live with the noise.

Removing pawls from your current freehub is a dreadfully poor, dangerous idea and grease will be a temporary fix and may cause cold weather engagement problems. I.e. the hub will freewheel both ways.
I have already went trough cup and cone phase. Some were easier to get right than others.
Grease will disable the pawls only if it gets behind the springs.
Will have to try out NLGI0 PFPE grease with 500cst or 800cst base oil viscosity this time. Last time went for NLGI2 for some reason which typically lasts for 30-50km or around 25 miles before it gets displaced. NLGI0 might flow back where it needs to be without leaking out.

Last edited by sysrq; 09-24-21 at 04:09 PM.
sysrq is offline  
Old 09-24-21, 05:21 PM
  #27  
Trakhak
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 3,118
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1123 Post(s)
Liked 993 Times in 580 Posts
Originally Posted by sysrq View Post
Grease will disable the pawls only if it gets behind the springs.
What we used to call "Famous last words." The problem is not confined to grease getting behind the springs. I used to see a few broken freewheels each winter in New England, always as a consequence of the bike owner filling the freewheel with grease. If the spring in your freehub is robust enough to force the pawl through the grease such that it engages fully, great. If not, a pawl failure can be quite a surprise when it happens.
Trakhak is offline  
Likes For Trakhak:
Old 09-24-21, 05:35 PM
  #28  
JohnDThompson 
Old fart
 
JohnDThompson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Appleton WI
Posts: 23,421

Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.

Mentioned: 135 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2919 Post(s)
Liked 1,866 Times in 1,132 Posts
Originally Posted by Litespud View Post
the comparison of the stability of a three-legged stool with the load-bearing distribution of a three-pawl freehub makes no sense whatsoever.
Don't be so sure. Having three points of contact in a load bearing structure tends to distribute forces equally over all three parts. That's why all modern freehubs are designed around having sets of three pawls engage simultaneously.
JohnDThompson is offline  
Likes For JohnDThompson:
Old 09-24-21, 07:46 PM
  #29  
cxwrench
Senior Member
 
cxwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Nor-Cal
Posts: 2,876

Bikes: lots

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1410 Post(s)
Liked 1,972 Times in 1,047 Posts
Originally Posted by sysrq View Post
I have already went trough cup and cone phase. Some were easier to get right than others.
Grease will disable the pawls only if it gets behind the springs.
Will have to try out NLGI0 PFPE grease with 500cst or 800cst base oil viscosity this time. Last time went for NLGI2 for some reason which typically lasts for 30-50km or around 25 miles before it gets displaced. NLGI0 might flow back where it needs to be without leaking out.
IMO cup/cone hubs are still the best.
cxwrench is offline  
Old 09-24-21, 08:05 PM
  #30  
sweeks
Senior Member
 
sweeks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicago area
Posts: 2,008

Bikes: Airborne "Carpe Diem", Motobecane "Mirage", Trek 6000, Strida 2, Dahon "Helios XL", Dahon "Mu XL", Tern "Verge S11i"

Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 770 Post(s)
Liked 326 Times in 236 Posts
Originally Posted by sysrq View Post
I have already went trough cup and cone phase. Some were easier to get right than others.
I'm not a professional bike mechanic, and I've been doing cup/cone bearings successfully for 50 years or more on a variety of kinds of wheels. A hub axle vise (like THIS ONE) makes it even easier, though it's not necessary. I can vouch for the silence of Shimano freehubs.
sweeks is offline  
Old 09-24-21, 08:10 PM
  #31  
gearbasher
Senior Member
 
gearbasher's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Sitting on my butt in front of a computer
Posts: 1,196
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 294 Post(s)
Liked 254 Times in 155 Posts
I ride Campy hubs. When servicing the freehub, I put one drop of Finish Line Wet Chain Lube on each pawl and smear two or three drops around the engagement ring. It makes them practically silent. Now give it to me for using chain lube on the pawls.
gearbasher is offline  
Old 09-25-21, 12:50 AM
  #32  
sysrq
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 197
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 104 Post(s)
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by gearbasher View Post
I ride Campy hubs. When servicing the freehub, I put one drop of Finish Line Wet Chain Lube on each pawl and smear two or three drops around the engagement ring. It makes them practically silent. Now give it to me for using chain lube on the pawls.
For how long does it last before leaking out?
sysrq is offline  
Old 09-25-21, 05:05 AM
  #33  
gearbasher
Senior Member
 
gearbasher's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Sitting on my butt in front of a computer
Posts: 1,196
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 294 Post(s)
Liked 254 Times in 155 Posts
The oil is very thick. I have not seen any leak out.
gearbasher is offline  
Old 09-25-21, 12:28 PM
  #34  
sysrq
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 197
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 104 Post(s)
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by gearbasher View Post
The oil is very thick. I have not seen any leak out.
Right okay, then there is no other option but to try out the NLGI0 grease first, then Lucas engine assembly lube and if that doesn't work then bite the bullet and get the Phil wood Tenacious oil or Dumondetech grease. On the other hand people say high engagement freehubs are inherently noisy and there is nothing you can do about it.
sysrq is offline  
Old 09-25-21, 01:49 PM
  #35  
Trakhak
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 3,118
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1123 Post(s)
Liked 993 Times in 580 Posts
Originally Posted by sysrq View Post
Right okay, then there is no other option but to try out the NLGI0 grease first, then Lucas engine assembly lube and if that doesn't work then bite the bullet and get the Phil wood Tenacious oil or Dumondetech grease. On the other hand people say high engagement freehubs are inherently noisy and there is nothing you can do about it.
Or, if I were bothered enough by a noisy freehub to want to do something about it, I might cut off a bit of each of the pawl springs to reduce the forcefulness of the pawl engagement..
Trakhak is offline  
Old 09-25-21, 06:07 PM
  #36  
canopus 
Senior Member
 
canopus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Kingwood, TX
Posts: 1,585

Bikes: Road, Touring, BMX, Cruisers...

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 133 Post(s)
Liked 167 Times in 106 Posts
me i just put grease in my campy hubs. no noise, no leaks, no broken chins…
__________________
1984 Cannondale ST
1985 Cannondale SR300
1980 Gary Littlejohn Cruiser
1984 Trek 760
1981 Trek 710
Pics
canopus is offline  
Old 09-26-21, 04:49 AM
  #37  
sysrq
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 197
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 104 Post(s)
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by canopus View Post
me i just put grease in my campy hubs. no noise, no leaks, no broken chins…
What type of grease (NLGI, base oil viscosity)?
sysrq is offline  
Old 09-26-21, 05:02 AM
  #38  
sysrq
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 197
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 104 Post(s)
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by Trakhak View Post
Or, if I were bothered enough by a noisy freehub to want to do something about it, I might cut off a bit of each of the pawl springs to reduce the forcefulness of the pawl engagement..
Aren't shorter springs stronger? Previously I have just bent them more inwards to be less forceful, but it didn't make ant difference in terms of loudness or grease longevity.
sysrq is offline  
Old 09-26-21, 05:03 AM
  #39  
sysrq
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 197
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 104 Post(s)
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by Trakhak View Post
Or, if I were bothered enough by a noisy freehub to want to do something about it, I might cut off a bit of each of the pawl springs to reduce the forcefulness of the pawl engagement..
Aren't shorter springs stronger? Previously I have just bent them more inwards to be less forceful, but it didn't make any difference in terms of loudness or grease longevity.
sysrq is offline  
Old 09-26-21, 08:09 AM
  #40  
Crankycrank
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 2,850
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 586 Post(s)
Liked 511 Times in 394 Posts
Originally Posted by sysrq View Post
Aren't shorter springs stronger? Previously I have just bent them more inwards to be less forceful, but it didn't make any difference in terms of loudness or grease longevity.
Stop trying to modify your freehub body. A recipe for disaster. Buy one that suits your needs.
Crankycrank is offline  
Likes For Crankycrank:
Old 09-26-21, 10:00 AM
  #41  
Kapusta
Cyclochondriac
 
Kapusta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 5,341

Bikes: Soma Fog Cutter, Surly Wednesday, Turner 5-Spot, Canfielld Tilt

Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2344 Post(s)
Liked 1,979 Times in 1,101 Posts
Terrible idea, IMO. But I understand the desire.

i don’t find my DT swiss too loud, and on my MTB even the Hopes are “acceptable”, though I would prefer quieter. But my fat bike came with a rear hub with CK level noise, and it drives my crazy. It feels excessive to buy buy or build a new rear wheel just for this, but I am still tempted to do it.
Kapusta is offline  
Likes For Kapusta:
Old 09-26-21, 07:37 PM
  #42  
canopus 
Senior Member
 
canopus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Kingwood, TX
Posts: 1,585

Bikes: Road, Touring, BMX, Cruisers...

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 133 Post(s)
Liked 167 Times in 106 Posts
Originally Posted by sysrq View Post
What type of grease (NLGI, base oil viscosity)?
Any grease I have on hand, it doesn't matter really as long as it isn't some thick wheel grease from 1985...
We like to think that the type of grease makes a difference... but really, keep it clean and free of debris. Beyond that, doesn't matter much.
What I have on hand right now and use is a tub of Kendal Super Blu L427 probably 20 yrs old now at least. I have a tub of Campy grease also but I don't use that much anymore except on loose stuff.
I have used phil grease also. Its grease...
__________________
1984 Cannondale ST
1985 Cannondale SR300
1980 Gary Littlejohn Cruiser
1984 Trek 760
1981 Trek 710
Pics
canopus is offline  
Old 09-27-21, 01:49 AM
  #43  
Kimmo 
bike whisperer
 
Kimmo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Melbourne, Oz
Posts: 9,455

Bikes: https://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=152015&p=1404231

Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1471 Post(s)
Liked 683 Times in 483 Posts
Originally Posted by HillRider View Post
Those who ride Campy, Chris King, etc. hubs claim their infernal racket is a feature, not a bug.
Shimano make the best freehubs hands down, and not just for the quietness, but the loud hub in my flash wheels is pretty handy on the MUP, at least
Kimmo is offline  
Old 09-27-21, 01:55 AM
  #44  
Kimmo 
bike whisperer
 
Kimmo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Melbourne, Oz
Posts: 9,455

Bikes: https://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=152015&p=1404231

Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1471 Post(s)
Liked 683 Times in 483 Posts
Originally Posted by sysrq View Post
I have some Lucas engine assembly oil which is supposed to be even more tacky and snotty than Phil Wood Tenacious oil, but it still creeps away in about one hour leaving nothing behind. Grease just gets displeased. Could use ferrofluid as a lubricant if engagement ring was magnetic, but people said it will attract metallic road grit so...
Can you magnetise the engagement ring? The ferrofluid experiment sounds like it's worth a shot! I wouldn't worry about it attracting grit - it could only pull on anything that had already made it well past the seal.
Kimmo is offline  
Old 09-27-21, 02:47 AM
  #45  
Kapusta
Cyclochondriac
 
Kapusta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 5,341

Bikes: Soma Fog Cutter, Surly Wednesday, Turner 5-Spot, Canfielld Tilt

Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2344 Post(s)
Liked 1,979 Times in 1,101 Posts
Originally Posted by JohnDThompson View Post
Don't be so sure. Having three points of contact in a load bearing structure tends to distribute forces equally over all three parts. That's why all modern freehubs are designed around having sets of three pawls engage simultaneously.
No, the 3-legged stool really is a bad analogy, and it is not true that all modern free hubs are designed around three pawls engaging simultaneously. Plenty of 4 pawl designs out there.

Unlike a stool legs - for which three is the largest number that still perfectly engages uneven surfaces with all three legs - there is nothing special about three pawls that guaranties they will engage evenly if something is misaligned.

Last edited by Kapusta; 09-27-21 at 05:28 AM.
Kapusta is offline  
Old 09-27-21, 04:45 AM
  #46  
sysrq
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 197
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 104 Post(s)
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by Crankycrank View Post
Stop trying to modify your freehub body. A recipe for disaster. Buy one that suits your needs.
Finding to buy one that checks all of the boxes and trade offs currently seems to be too complicated. Currently the prices have doubled for bike components while selection is reduced.
sysrq is offline  
Old 09-27-21, 05:00 AM
  #47  
sysrq
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 197
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 104 Post(s)
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by Kimmo View Post
Can you magnetise the engagement ring? The ferrofluid experiment sounds like it's worth a shot! I wouldn't worry about it attracting grit - it could only pull on anything that had already made it well past the seal.
That would be interesting, but I'm not sure if I'm in the right position to pull this off. The magnetism might cause more drag unless the pawls are made out of stainless steel.
After reading rare comments on the internet about semifluid grease being good enough to silence noisy freehubs I'm trying to choose between NLGI0 or NLGI00.
I use a semi fluid grease, doesn’t cause pawls to stick, and doesn’t spread out like thick grease, causing the pawls to become noisy again. Simples
This quote was about Hope Pro 2 which doesn't have multiple theeth on the pawls, so a lot easier than Chosen 120pt.

NLGI0 (soft) doesn't seem to want to flow below certain mass. NLGI00 (semifluid) might leak out/wash out while also not being thick enough to reduce the noise.
It has been said that every type of application depending on a specific geometry and other requirements needs a different lubricant, so knowing the sheer amount of different types of freehub teeth shapes and counts it might not be that easy to find the most optimal one.

Last edited by sysrq; 09-27-21 at 05:46 AM.
sysrq is offline  
Old 09-27-21, 07:10 AM
  #48  
Kimmo 
bike whisperer
 
Kimmo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Melbourne, Oz
Posts: 9,455

Bikes: https://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=152015&p=1404231

Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1471 Post(s)
Liked 683 Times in 483 Posts
Originally Posted by sysrq View Post
That would be interesting, but I'm not sure if I'm in the right position to pull this off. The magnetism might cause more drag unless the pawls are made out of stainless steel.
Hmm, wonder if the magnetism could substitute for springs, for about the same drag...?
Kimmo is offline  
Old 09-27-21, 08:02 AM
  #49  
sysrq
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 197
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 104 Post(s)
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by Kimmo View Post
Hmm, wonder if the magnetism could substitute for springs, for about the same drag...?
It could but I don't know for how long the engagement ring will stay magnetic enough. Embedding rare earth magnets under the engagement ring might work better. If it works just as good as springless freehubs with magnets in pawls then it should have been tried out and tested already. All I know is that ferrofluids get used as lubricants and can also form a vacuum tight seal if necessary, bicycle might not be the most justified and appropriate application for it though.
sysrq is offline  
Old 09-27-21, 08:08 AM
  #50  
cyccommute 
Mad bike riding scientist
 
cyccommute's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 25,158

Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones

Mentioned: 136 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4806 Post(s)
Liked 2,359 Times in 1,396 Posts
Originally Posted by sysrq View Post
Might be misophonia or the harsh noise just adds to mental fatigue/anxiety during longish 3-8 hour rides at night/early morning.
If the sound bothers your, either learn to live with it or learn Broadway show tunes and sing them at the top of your lungs while coasting. Quit trying to modify your free hub.

The cup and cone bearings are hard to adjust just right in general. Shimano now makes few wheels with cartridge bearings such as WH-MT601
using 145mm OLD truough axles and disc brakes only as far as I know. Since I happen to have available rim brakes only at the back of the Thorn Audax Mk3R frame then Shimano is still out of the question. Also couldn't find any videos with WH-MT601 hub sound.
There are literally millions of hubs out there that will meet your needs if you want to build a new wheel. Look for something with fewer teeth on the engagement gear. Or look for older used hubs. Or look at another brand. I have several White Industry hubs that are quite, although older ones are a bit quieter than newer ones. Phil Wood hubs are relatively quiet.

And since I have spare bearings for current wheel already stocked up then buying new wheels is not justifiable.
Well if that is the reason, then learn to live with the noise. On the other hand, you don’t need to “stock up” on cartridge bearings. They don’t wear out all that often. I have cartridge bearing hubs with tens of thousands of miles on them and I haven’t had to replace the bearings…ever. I’ve only every had to replace three or 4 cartridge bearings in hubs since I got my first cartridge bearing hub in 1984. One of those replacements was on a hub that I purchased for cheap at a bike swap because the seller didn’t understand that the bearings can be replaced. It’s still going strong.

Originally Posted by sysrq View Post
Aren't shorter springs stronger? Previously I have just bent them more inwards to be less forceful, but it didn't make any difference in terms of loudness or grease longevity.
Stronger how? Strength of spring depends more on the material and thickness of the rod use for the coil than length.

And either cutting the springs or installing shorter ones is just a bad idea. You would reduce the amount of the pawl that is engaged on the engagement ring so you are just catching the very edge of the teeth. You’ll either end up breaking teeth or not engaging at all. Again, quit trying to modify your hubs. It’s a really bad idea.

Originally Posted by sysrq View Post
Finding to buy one that checks all of the boxes and trade offs currently seems to be too complicated. Currently the prices have doubled for bike components while selection is reduced.
If it is too complicated, then learn to live with what you have. Ignore it or learn show tunes. Oklahoma is a favorite of mine.
__________________
Stuart Black
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Days of Wineless Roads. Bed and Breakfasting along the KATY
Twisting Down the Alley. Misadventures in tornado alley.
cyccommute is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.