tricky 

Man, that Robert guy really knows how to start a thread!

In the interest of having a nuanced conversation that starts out with the assumption that we can all appreciate a good or even a low end bike from any country, I'd like to know what you all think are the highest end and lowest end of a country's bikes. Japan, USA, Italy, France and England come to mind as the obvious targets, but perhaps also Switzerland, any of the Nordics. Maybe even Taiwan made bikes in a large enough range in the C&V era to be considered.

I'll start.

Japanese High End:
Zunow
C.S. Hirose
Konno/3 Rensho
Cherubim

Japanese Low End:
Royce Union
Kabukis
C. Itoh
Any of the millions of entry level or bike boom bike from mass manufacturers.

Eric F 

My '77 Nishiki ONP. Not as "boutique" as some of the ones you listed, but definitely a long way from junk.

WGB 

I thought Kabukis were Bridgestones?? Quick Reply

tkamd73 

Made by Bridgestone, and not all were junk or low end, plus coolest head badge ever. On the high end, the OP kind of blew off Fuji and Panasonic, makers of some of the best from Japan
Tim

BFisher

@Eric F
That is one handsome machine!

microcord

Here's a pretty up-to-date list of Japanese frame builders, with links. The great majority work in steel. I'd have more confidence riding a steel (or titanium or alumin(i)um) frame made by any of them than riding an expensive carbon fibre frame emblazoned with just about any brand name; whether their "end" is high or low doesn't concern me. Of course the list doesn't cover a considerable number of defunct brands: Amuna, Iribe, Reminton, etc.

sd5782 

I’m hoping my project 72 Fuji Newest that I am working on at least gets to mid-upper tier on vintage Japanese.

Eric F 

Thank you.

tricky 

Yes, I wasn't clear in my description, but I wasn't trying to be comprehensive in my list. Definitely a ton of high quality stuff from Japan and most manufacturers make bikes on the full spectrum; Fuji, Univega, Panasonic, Kabuki, et al

RiddleOfSteel

Then there are all the full-line Japanese manufactures (Fuji et al) that offered everything. In my experience, even the low-end Fujis ride or certainly handle very nicely, and I am putting my money where my mouth is on that with a very large, very heavy (frameset), and very mid-range del Rey and it's a great bike. I even purposefully kept the narrow (at the hoods, wider in the drops) 37cm bars because that contributed to the way it steered and I liked the way it did so on the original test ride (before getting overhauled and upgraded).

robertj298 

I have to admit my threads on French and Italian bikes were worded badly. I'm sure there are great vintage bikes that were made there

and other countries but I'll admit that I am a cheapskate but I like a quality product. I have owned probably 10 Japanese vintage bikes. All were mid to upper tier

bikes. All were in excellent+ condition needing only basic service and parts. All were bought between $100 and $300. I honestly don't

believe I could find the same quality French or Italian bike for close to that price. I am the same way with automobiles I have owned 4 Toyotas and 3

Hondas over the years. All have gone between 200-300 thousand miles with very few repairs or issues. Are there better German and Italian made cars

,probably . Will they be more or even as reliable? probably not. Can I afford one? defiantly not lol

T-Mar

All the Japanese mass volume such as Bridgestone, Fuji, Miyata, Panasonic and Sekine, offered high grade models. So, too did many of the Japnesee contract maanufactured brands, such as Kabuki and C. Itoh, as owners of Diamond series models will testify.

However, a lot of those other so-called Japanese bicycles, such as Centurion, Lotus and Nishiki, were actually owned by USA marketing comanies who had the bicycles contract manufactured by whichever nation offered the best value and consumer accepotance for their price point. In fact all three brands, had high grade models manfactured in Italy during the mid-1980s.

To look at the lowest grade bicycles to come out of Japan, you have to look at the models offered by the USA automotive, hardware and department store chains. Even though they they were manufactured to a very low price point, most of them were still quality bicycles. Sure, they weren't light or high performance but they were inexpensive and could be reliable, if mediocre, recreational transporration. A lot members will roll their eyes about them being "reliable" but the vast majority of these bicycles were decent and good value for their price point. Typically, they weren't much lower grade than the entry level bicycles from the big name, mass volume brands at the LBS. In fact, they were often made by the same company. Their poor reputations stams from the inexperiended, cheap labour they used to assemble these bicycle. All they really needed were competent mechanics, which was the ace up the LBS' sleeve.

droppedandlost 

thook

Not only that, but the poor quality parts the manufacturers spec'd them with. I've had and have some Schwinns, Dawes, Peugeot, Raleigh, and others that weren't primo as a frameset, but not junk, either. Taking off the junk parts...Simplex, Huret, Shimano, Sunrace, and bottom of the barrel Suntour ...and replacing them with the good stuff makes a world of difference.

majmt 

Go ahead and start a thread here asking if all Italian bikes are junk. I dare ya.

martl

Italy has contributed a huge lot to the culture of cycling, I'll never deny it. They have a love for design, which in turn i love. Sometimes, they chose bling over quality or actual progress. I've seen mid level japanese frames (Tsunoda for example) which would put most high-end Italian frames to shame.

For Japan, you can name almost any manufacturer up on the pedestal, be it Nagasawa, Panasonic, Kalavinka, Umezawa, Anchor, Gan Well, Eimei, Georama, Watanabe.. Etc etc

steelbikeguy

that seems like an obvious thread topic! There would have to be separate competitions for production bikes and custom bikes, though.
I might have to do a search and see if it's already been done.... seems incredible that it wouldn't have been discussed thoroughly by now.

Steve in Peoria
(I think Rivendell would place fairly high in that competition)

shoota 

Cooler headbadge, AND cooler name.

shoota 

It kinda has..there is a "Show your headbadge" thread somewhere.

squirtdad

hmmm my first 10 speed was an Azuki.... probably a contract built bike, Paid $160 for it in 1971 (sugar beet hoeing money) it was a good bike for what it was. typical build for the time... suntour deraillers and shifters, dia compe center pull with suicide levers, alloy stem, handle bars, and seat post, quick release wheels with alloy rims.(Sunshine IIRC not sure if 4130 or chrome moly

This was not junk by any means, and compared to todays entry level (big box store) bikes a ton better in functionality and reliability. and had a cool head badge, and nice candy apple blue paint.

this bike got be through highs school and the coast guard....it got to get ridden in Connecticut, NYC, Virginia, florida, Newfoundland, Nova scotia, Bahamas and Bermuda

squirtdad

under the paint some had not so great brazing, but the lowly torpado super strada i had road so nice that I am looking for it's big brother, the super light

Andy_K 

I can only speak from my own experience, but I'll take a stab at Austrian bikes.

High end: Austro-Daimler Ultima
Double-butted Reynold 531 tubing
Forged Campagnolo dropouts
Reasonable (neutral) geometry
I bought it with a mish-mash of parts and replaced those with a different mish-mash
This was a very smooth bike


Low end: Steyr Clubman
Hi-ten steel frame and fork, with plastic "chrome" fork crown cover
Stamped dropouts
Wacky geometry (69º seat tube angle, IIRC)
I bought it with a lot of rust, including very rusty parts. I cleaned up what I could and supplemented with similarly low end parts where needed.
The saddle was an unholy mix of rubber, steel, and springs.
I rode this thing 100 kilometers and never want to have to ride one again.
When cleaned up, they look kind of nice.

squirtdad

to many, I think the response is "thems fighting words",

IME the low end Japanese bikes I had were a mix of Suntour, Diacompe, SR, Sugino, araya, sunshine, etc and worked well, especially at the price point, I can't speak to simplex or huret.

so different than low end bikes to day where the parts are really throwaway (based on working on neighbors, friends and relatives bikes)

Chuck M 

There is a lot of talk of what is junk lately. But I suppose Japanese bikes are an easy target to pick on as they were a big part of the 70s and 80s bike booms. But a good many of them were pretty solidly built in my opinion. Suzue hubs, Arraya rims, Sugino cranks, Suntour drivetrains and Dia-Compe brakes hold up well. I'm one of many who owe my love of cycling to the bike boom and Japanese hi-tensile. Were it not for the dependable bikes that came from the bike boom at an affordable price I would not have known anything other than department store chain offerings.

clubman 

I feel like I'm on a dystopian Bradbury carousel where the beautiful horses have been replaced with BSOs and the music is Tom Waits 'Bone Machine' playing backwards. And I just keep getting older.

Gonna be a long winter.