Enter the Unidentified Frame
#1
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Enter the Unidentified Frame
November and December of 2021 threw some unexpected pickups my way, which will necessitate some current members of the collection going to new homes this year to accommodate. Among the additions I stumbled on this from a UK seller - could not resist the combination of inexpensive ask, intriguing lugs and layout, and in my size range at 60cm c-t. I made an offer that was accepted and here we are. He didn't know what it is and though I've done quite a bit of research I've come up empty so far. The double roller cable guide on the BB in addition to the rear dropouts and BB grease nipple hole seem to indicate a late 30's-40's window. Decent tube set, the frame and fork combo is fairly light at 5.84lb. Curious on any thoughts here on this? Attached are a few shots of lugs, etc, and a link to the GPix page for more shots and higher rez.
If it remains a mystery so be it, it's unusual and I like it, plus it's sound and build-able. It will be a mid-year project at earliest, plans may change but I'm contemplating having it partially chromed and built up with period-correct parts to the extent that both my wallet and patience hold out.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/cRk2KpV1SzNEmern9
If it remains a mystery so be it, it's unusual and I like it, plus it's sound and build-able. It will be a mid-year project at earliest, plans may change but I'm contemplating having it partially chromed and built up with period-correct parts to the extent that both my wallet and patience hold out.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/cRk2KpV1SzNEmern9
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Pohl's law: Nothing is so good that somebody, somewhere, will not hate it.
Pohl's law: Nothing is so good that somebody, somewhere, will not hate it.
#2
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Subscribing! Never seen such headlugs before (they look hand-cut) nor anything with all those details but suspect the braze-on shifter boss is for a Simplex unit. Will be interested to hear what some experts say...
Is it confirmed to be Imperial tubing and BSC threaded? Have you got a seat post size?
Is it confirmed to be Imperial tubing and BSC threaded? Have you got a seat post size?
Last edited by unworthy1; 01-09-22 at 12:35 PM.
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#3
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Subscribing! Never seen such headlugs before (they look hand-cut) nor anything with all those details but suspect the braze-on shifter boss is for a Simplex unit. Will be interested to hear what some experts say... Is it confirmed to be Imperial tubing and BSC threaded? Have you got a seat post size?
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Pohl's law: Nothing is so good that somebody, somewhere, will not hate it.
Pohl's law: Nothing is so good that somebody, somewhere, will not hate it.
Last edited by PilotFishBob; 01-09-22 at 12:51 PM.
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-----
Crown is EKLA model "Extra Light" from Belgium -
you may discover the name to be cast in to the underside of the crown as here -
employment of a Belgian crown does not invalidate idea of a UK origin for the frame
EKLA frame bits sometimes seen on UK produced frames of this era
-----
Crown is EKLA model "Extra Light" from Belgium -
you may discover the name to be cast in to the underside of the crown as here -
employment of a Belgian crown does not invalidate idea of a UK origin for the frame
EKLA frame bits sometimes seen on UK produced frames of this era
-----
Last edited by juvela; 01-09-22 at 03:28 PM. Reason: addition
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#5
feros ferio
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Well, it does not appear to be a Carlton. (Sorry, that's the best I can do from my frame of reference.)
I am guessing mid-1950s vintage. Cool frameset!
I am guessing mid-1950s vintage. Cool frameset!
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"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
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#6
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^^ " Frame of reference" I see what you did there...
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Pohl's law: Nothing is so good that somebody, somewhere, will not hate it.
Pohl's law: Nothing is so good that somebody, somewhere, will not hate it.
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#7
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-----
Crown is EKLA model "Extra Light" from Belgium -
you may discover the name to be cast in to the underside of the crown as here -
employment of a Belgian crown does not invalidate idea of a UK origin for the frame
EKLA frame bits sometimes seen on UK produced frames of this era
-----
Crown is EKLA model "Extra Light" from Belgium -
you may discover the name to be cast in to the underside of the crown as here -
employment of a Belgian crown does not invalidate idea of a UK origin for the frame
EKLA frame bits sometimes seen on UK produced frames of this era
-----
Better info than I had.
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Pohl's law: Nothing is so good that somebody, somewhere, will not hate it.
Pohl's law: Nothing is so good that somebody, somewhere, will not hate it.
Last edited by PilotFishBob; 01-09-22 at 04:33 PM.
#8
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this image shows master framebuilder Johnny Berry of Manchester UK standing at the front of his shop in 1972 holding a newly completed frame
it is constructed with the same model EKLA crown as your example -
Johnny employed EKLA crowns extensively for a long period in his career
-----
this image shows master framebuilder Johnny Berry of Manchester UK standing at the front of his shop in 1972 holding a newly completed frame
it is constructed with the same model EKLA crown as your example -
Johnny employed EKLA crowns extensively for a long period in his career
-----
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#9
framebuilder
When I was wandering around England trying to visit as many builders as possible to find someplace that could teach me, I was surprised at how many small builders there actually were. Every major city had several and smaller midsized cities had one and sometimes two. Americans tend to be familiar only with frames from the biggest companies. Out of the way builders are seldom known over here. They often aren't recognized outside of their local region over there either. I learned at Ellis Briggs in Shipley West Yorkshire and it was a fairly big operation compared to the many garage builders making frames to be branded by bike store name instead of their own. E-B isn't well known over here. Yorkshire is an area seldom visited by outsiders. I went to a church in Bradford and I was the 1st American some members had ever met.
When I collected some framebuilding pieces from Johnny Berry's estate in 1975, I got some top eyes like are on this frame as well as those little brass rollers for gear cables. Those lugs look obviously hand cut to me. I've never seen anything similar. Of course I haven't seen that many British frames from that era either.
When I collected some framebuilding pieces from Johnny Berry's estate in 1975, I got some top eyes like are on this frame as well as those little brass rollers for gear cables. Those lugs look obviously hand cut to me. I've never seen anything similar. Of course I haven't seen that many British frames from that era either.
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#10
framebuilder
-----
this image shows master framebuilder Johnny Berry of Manchester UK standing at the front of his shop in 1972 holding a newly completed frame
it is constructed with the same model EKLA crown as your example -
Johnny employed EKLA crowns extensively for a long period in his career
-----
this image shows master framebuilder Johnny Berry of Manchester UK standing at the front of his shop in 1972 holding a newly completed frame
it is constructed with the same model EKLA crown as your example -
Johnny employed EKLA crowns extensively for a long period in his career
-----
Johnny Berry's serial # placement
Johnny Berry's cast iron alignment table, bench vises and fork alignment fixture
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#11
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The shift boss appears to be of the Benelux design for the 3-4 speed shift system. I sent the last of my shifter stash to Brent and he may be able to help you source the parts to make the Whitworth threaded boss useable again. Smiles, MH
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Need Norris Lockley
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Brent
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#15
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Thanks everyone. Doug Fattic , I read your writings here and elsewhere on frame building, including your time in the UK. Good stuff. From that and other reading I had gathered that at the time Europe had a plethora of small builders and that identification of this frame could be wishful thinking, still getting more here than I did independently. Certainly the lugs are not like anything else I'd ever seen.
For what it's worth the serial number is 932, both on the bottom bracket shell and the fork steerer tube.
For what it's worth the serial number is 932, both on the bottom bracket shell and the fork steerer tube.
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Pohl's law: Nothing is so good that somebody, somewhere, will not hate it.
#16
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Thanks obrentharris , I'll be sure to follow up with you.
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Pohl's law: Nothing is so good that somebody, somewhere, will not hate it.
Pohl's law: Nothing is so good that somebody, somewhere, will not hate it.
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Recently I acquired a Reg Harris frame and fork that may provide the correct headset and maybe even the bottom bracket cups. Let me know the frame is still here in my shop. Smiles, MH
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#18
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Also, pics of the Harris?
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Pohl's law: Nothing is so good that somebody, somewhere, will not hate it.
Pohl's law: Nothing is so good that somebody, somewhere, will not hate it.
Last edited by PilotFishBob; 01-16-22 at 07:38 AM.
#19
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Rollers at the bottom bracket for shifter cables are on my 1959 German Hugo Rickert. So it could be later than 40's.
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#20
framebuilder
It might be helpful if you measure the width between both the front and rear dropouts. They might not be 120 and 100. The Johnny Berry frame in my pictures was designed to be a Gentleman's upright Sturmey Archer 3 speed model. It can't be converted well to drop bars. Also if you could measure the distances between the brake holes and the axles (center to center both front and rear) that would be helpful too. Maybe it was made for 700C wheels and center pull brakes but maybe not.
#21
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Thanks Wildwood. Doug, stay width measures about 115 rear and 98 front, fork from center brake hole to top of dropout slot 365mm. Drive side dropout on the rear is bent inwards a bit, which may have a bearing on the width or not, I measured where they join the stays. Also compared the fork side by side with a known 700c compatible fork, definitely longer. I have a set of GB brakes with sufficient range to go 27" or 700c.
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Pohl's law: Nothing is so good that somebody, somewhere, will not hate it.
Pohl's law: Nothing is so good that somebody, somewhere, will not hate it.
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What a fantastic, interesting frame whatever it is!
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#23
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Today I got a chance to take off the fixed cup and actually get a full view of the tube joining in the bottom bracket. Interesting to say the least, what appear to be "nails" intruding into the tube space. I had read about pinned frame building, this is the first time I've ever seen this and I think that's what this is. Definitely something Doug would know about. Pic attached, you may be able to see one of the 'pins' in the right-hand corner. I suspect that means whoever built this did not use a jig?
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Pohl's law: Nothing is so good that somebody, somewhere, will not hate it.
Pohl's law: Nothing is so good that somebody, somewhere, will not hate it.
Last edited by PilotFishBob; 01-17-22 at 09:01 PM.
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#24
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Not an uncommon finding. My Colnago, which looks like 1983 vintage, has them too.
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#25
framebuilder
Today I got a chance to take off the fixed cup and actually get a full view of the tube joining in the bottom bracket. Interesting to say the least, what appear to be "nails" intruding into the tube space. I had read about pinned frame building, this is the first time I've ever seen this and I think that's what this is. Definitely something Doug would know about. Pic attached, you may be able to see one of the 'pins' in the right-hand corner. I suspect that means whoever built this did not use a jig?
This wasn't an uncommon way frames were brazed in the UK before and after WWII. We also had an oxyacetylene torch for non main triangle brazing. Eventually Andrew the journeyman builder skipped hearth brazing and did it all with the oxyacetylene torch. Many (maybe most) English builders pinned their frames wether they hearth brazed or not so their appearance on this mystery frame doesn't narrow down builder candidates very much.
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