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Leaving single pawl in a 120pt Chosen hub for noise reduction

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Leaving single pawl in a 120pt Chosen hub for noise reduction

Old 09-23-21, 05:37 AM
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sysrq
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Leaving single pawl in a 120pt Chosen hub for noise reduction

Since I'm unable to find any similar wheels with cartridge bearings in similar price range then the last option (after trying out PFPE miracle grease which is supposed to last way longer due to good wetting ability on metals (low surface tension)) is to go with a single pawl instead of three. Some people on forums said that they "don't see the reason for more than one pawl from mechanical standpoint other than to fallow the trend of increased noise level, anyone who thinks otherwise has been skipping engineering lectures, more pawls will just accelerate the wear of engagement ring".
These pawls with multiple teeth seem to have the load spread over wider area anyway and the teeth are too small to break, seems like they can only wear down.

Last edited by sysrq; 09-23-21 at 03:47 PM.
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Old 09-23-21, 07:30 AM
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A single pawl puts all the load on that one pawl. Three pawls can distribute the load over all the pawls, even better than four pawls (think of how a three-leg stool automatically sits without wobble, while a four-leg stool will wobble unless the legs are precisely the same length).
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Old 09-23-21, 07:33 AM
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I guess if I ever have a freehub or freewheel wear out, maybe I will start to be concerned about such stuff.
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Old 09-23-21, 08:01 AM
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Read this article, describes a painful crash during the Giro a few years ago caused by removing pawls from a freehub
https://www.velonews.com/gear/road-g...lost-the-giro/
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Old 09-23-21, 08:11 AM
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If you are looking for a quieter hub, get Shimano's as they are nearly silent while coasting. My FH-7700 Dura Ace hub makes no noise at all. Shimano even makes a series of hubs intended for Police bikes that are completely silent.

Those who ride Campy, Chris King, etc. hubs claim their infernal racket is a feature, not a bug.

And, no, don't remove pawls from an existing hub.
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Old 09-23-21, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by sysrq View Post
Since I'm unable to find any similar wheels with cartridge bearings in similar price range then the last option after trying out PFPE miracle grease which is supposed to last way longer due to good wetting ability on metals (low surface tension) is to go with a single pawl instead of three. Some people on forums said that they "don't see the reason for more than one pawl from mechanical standpoint other than to fallow the trend of increased noise level, anyone who thinks otherwise has been skipping engineering lectures, more pawls will just accelerate the wear of engagement ring".
These pawls with multiple teeth seem to have the load spread over wider area anyway and the teeth are too small to break, seems like they can only wear down.
I think the Darwin Awards might be interested in your story.
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Old 09-23-21, 10:57 AM
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This is a stupid idea. 'People on forums' are telling you to remove 66.6% of parts of a critical component of the drive system because they 'don't see the reason' for them? Are these forum people mechanical engineers? Are they sharing the data that they analyzed to come up with this plan?

When I said 'stupid idea' I may have misspoke It's a phenomenally stupid idea.
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Old 09-23-21, 11:01 AM
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if you prefer to walk your bicycle, you can do so & not have to remove mechanical parts.
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Old 09-23-21, 12:55 PM
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As someone who has gone over the handlebars and landed on my chin due to trying to optimize improperly (and who grew up working in a machine shop and now has a PhD in Engineering) I would suggest that removing 2 of 3 pawls (or any, really) is exceptionally unwise.
I've also broken a dura ace cassette and it's pretty unnerving. If you're willing to risk 13 cracked teeth, and having the doc scrape the dirt out of your broken jawbone, or a broken neck, or your genitals bashed...

If the strength of materials were such that one pawl would hold, that's they way they would have designed it. In addition to leveling the stress on any individual pawl, having 3 of them offers some degree of fail-safety. If one breaks, the others catch you. If using grease instead of oil (the usual approach ) doesn't quiet the hub down enough, get another hub. It's really, really hard (and way more expensive) to get a lot of caps on your teeth as I did.
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Old 09-23-21, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by WizardOfBoz View Post
As someone who has gone over the handlebars and landed on my chin due to trying to optimize improperly (and who grew up working in a machine shop and now has a PhD in Engineering) I would suggest that removing 2 of 3 pawls (or any, really) is exceptionally unwise.
I've also broken a dura ace cassette and it's pretty unnerving. If you're willing to risk 13 cracked teeth, and having the doc scrape the dirt out of your broken jawbone, or a broken neck, or your genitals bashed...

If the strength of materials were such that one pawl would hold, that's they way they would have designed it. In addition to leveling the stress on any individual pawl, having 3 of them offers some degree of fail-safety. If one breaks, the others catch you. If using grease instead of oil (the usual approach ) doesn't quiet the hub down enough, get another hub. It's really, really hard (and way more expensive) to get a lot of caps on your teeth as I did.
Then probably the only way is to go to a LBS with the old wheel at hand to avoid sifting trough all the specifications while at the same time being able to hear how the clicking noise sounds on different wheels instead of buying online. As long as the clicking sounds on the softish side not sharp and harsh it should be ok. Although you can only tell the true sound when the excess grease has migrated away after some use, so it's not really possible to evaluate that way either.

Last edited by sysrq; 09-23-21 at 04:01 PM.
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Old 09-23-21, 02:05 PM
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Do you suffer from misophonia or some other affliction that makes freehub noise a major issue? If so, move past your preference for cartridge bearings and go with perfectly silent Shimano hubs. I like quiet hubs when I ride alone but some noise can be useful when others are involved. Give pedestrians or other riders a heads up when you approach.
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Old 09-23-21, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by shelbyfv View Post
Do you suffer from misophonia or some other affliction that makes freehub noise a major issue? If so, move past your preference for cartridge bearings and go with perfectly silent Shimano hubs. I like quiet hubs when I ride alone but some noise can be useful when others are involved. Give pedestrians or other riders a heads up when you approach.
Might be misophonia or the harsh noise just adds to mental fatigue/anxiety during longish 3-8 hour rides at night/early morning.
The cup and cone bearings are hard to adjust just right in general. Shimano now makes few wheels with cartridge bearings such as WH-MT601
using 145mm OLD truough axles and disc brakes only as far as I know. Since I happen to have available rim brakes only at the back of the Thorn Audax Mk3R frame then Shimano is still out of the question. Also couldn't find any videos with WH-MT601 hub sound.
And since I have spare bearings for current wheel already stocked up then buying new wheels is not justifiable.

Last edited by sysrq; 09-23-21 at 04:01 PM.
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Old 09-23-21, 08:42 PM
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Quit coasting!!!!!

If those hubs are half as loud in person as they are in the online videos, they make Chris King sound like Shimano Silent Clutch. VERY obnoxious! They would be gone from my bike in one short ride. I can't imagine them on a plastic bike. And I've got pre DT Hugi hubs to remind me to keep pedaling. Interesting technology though. You need the Chosen "Silence" hub where the pawls retract when not pedaling.

Cartridge bearings are over rated for hubs and cup and cone are easy to adjust properly. Shimano sez cup and cone have less friction and are more durable. But more expensive to make.

One of the great joys of night riding IS the quiet-
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Old 09-23-21, 10:24 PM
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Phil Wood grease will quiet your pawls..
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Old 09-24-21, 03:21 AM
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Originally Posted by reconnaissance View Post
Phil Wood grease will quiet your pawls..
I have some Lucas engine assembly oil which is supposed to be even more tacky and snotty than Phil Wood Tenacious oil, but it still creeps away in about one hour leaving nothing behind. Grease just gets displeased. Could use ferrofluid as a lubricant if engagement ring was magnetic, but people said it will attract metallic road grit so...
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Old 09-24-21, 03:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Ross200 View Post
Quit coasting!!!!!
During long rides coasting provides some rest and allows to periodically concentrate on the surroundings since during peddling mind is at more tensed up state. Other reasons are reduced brake usage before stopping and high speed descents where keeping still is safer.

Last edited by sysrq; 09-24-21 at 08:09 AM.
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Old 09-24-21, 03:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Ross200 View Post
You need the Chosen "Silence" hub where the pawls retract when not pedaling.



One of the great joys of night riding IS the quiet-
Last time I looked at Chosen "Silence" there was only short article about it and not a single one available at Ali Express or anywhere else.
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Old 09-24-21, 05:43 AM
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https://www.amazon.com/ear-plugs/s?k=ear+plugs
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Old 09-24-21, 08:21 AM
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If a quiet freehub is desired, why not get a hub with a quiet freehub? Or just do your single pawl thing and not worry about what we say.

Without knowing how that particular freehub is designed, I'm wondering what the asymmetrical forces might do when only one point of the freehub is taking all the load of you pedaling.
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Old 09-24-21, 08:28 AM
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I use hope hubs and I have gotten so tired of listening to them on long rides that I pedal instead of coasting. This usually takes quite a bit longer than 8 hours for me though. Shimano is a good lower priced option, but I don't know if you can buy them right now. There are silent but expensive options like onyx. There are some others, but nobody has much experience with them yet.

I recommend against loading a freehub up with lube since that can cause engagement problems too.
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Old 09-24-21, 08:51 AM
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As I see it you have two choices:

1. Buy an inherently quiet hub like a Shimano and learn the not-difficult art of adjusting cup-and-cone bearings every year or so.
2. Learn to live with the noise.

Removing pawls from your current freehub is a dreadfully poor, dangerous idea and grease will be a temporary fix and may cause cold weather engagement problems. I.e. the hub will freewheel both ways.
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Old 09-24-21, 09:04 AM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by JohnDThompson View Post
A single pawl puts all the load on that one pawl. Three pawls can distribute the load over all the pawls, even better than four pawls (think of how a three-leg stool automatically sits without wobble, while a four-leg stool will wobble unless the legs are precisely the same length).
the comparison of the stability of a three-legged stool with the load-bearing distribution of a three-pawl freehub makes no sense whatsoever.
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Old 09-24-21, 11:00 AM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by sysrq View Post
Might be misophonia or the harsh noise just adds to mental fatigue/anxiety during longish 3-8 hour rides at night/early morning.
The cup and cone bearings are hard to adjust just right in general. Shimano now makes few wheels with cartridge bearings such as WH-MT601
using 145mm OLD truough axles and disc brakes only as far as I know. Since I happen to have available rim brakes only at the back of the Thorn Audax Mk3R frame then Shimano is still out of the question. Also couldn't find any videos with WH-MT601 hub sound.
And since I have spare bearings for current wheel already stocked up then buying new wheels is not justifiable.
people have been adjusting cup and cone without problems for a long time, the newer shimano hubs have a different adjustment systems for cone and hub. it is dead easy to use. utegra 6800 a super quiet and not to expensive
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Old 09-24-21, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Litespud View Post
the comparison of the stability of a three-legged stool with the load-bearing distribution of a three-pawl freehub makes no sense whatsoever.
Agreed.
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Old 09-24-21, 02:48 PM
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And would a loud single-pawl hub be less annoying than the 3-pawl version? If I'm in bed and a faucet's dripping, it's infuriating whether it's a slow or a fast drip.

In fact:

"In ancient times (and probably sadly in modern times as well), a slow form of torture was used that involved tying someone up, holding them in place, and letting water slowly drip on their head for hours, even days."
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