Kabuki12

All this talk of ItalVega makes me want to ride mine. It has been a few weeks since I rode it , favoring other bikes in my stable. Maybe a lunch ride out to the harbor , I just love the way it rides and I am so glad I rescued it. Joe joesvintageroadbikes.wordpress

mech986 

Back in the day, italian bikes were measured CTT or center of crank bolt to top of the top tube via the seat tube. Some even suggested top of the seat lug. Today, its more CTC or center of top tube as it intersects the seat lug. I always suggest doing and noting both measurements along with the top tube length CTC seat tube to head tube. For some the BB height from GTC ground to center of BB is also helpful. Other measurements are the clearance with typical 700C x 25 tires to bottom of crown or brakes to determine potential tire size increases with wider/taller tires. Same with measuring rear brake bridge, chain stay bridge and side to side stay clearances with normal rear dropout adjuster settings.

tgot 

Sorry for the slow response, things have been hectic. Thank you for spindle discussion, I've got a Sugino XD2 triple, and the Sugino site recommends a 113mm spindle. I'm not sure how to reconcile that with general recommendation for 120-122.

Hmm, I had rough measured before, but I went back:

Center....

I make that 22.25 CTC and 22.75 CTT ?
22.25*2.54 is 56.515 CTC, making is only slightly larger that the 56 CTC of my other bike.

But my research had matched what mech986 said, that the nominal sizes were CTT. 22.75*2.54 is 57.785 cm. Obviously, I could be off 1/8" or even 1/4". But 55cm CTT would be ~21 5/8". Unless I'm not lined up where 'center' of BB shell is considered, I think these measurements say it's a "58" size.

francophile 

Measured mine just now before crashing out. Brought it back to the house for a possible sale. Fingers crossed!

I measured with a metric ruler. Came out to 56 CTC, 57 CTT. Your measure looks around 22in CTC, Google tells me 22 inches = 55.88 centimeters, so basically 56. Looks like our bikes are basically the same size.

So, twinsies indeed. Looks like our bikes are the same size, same color, same model, slightly different condition

PS - mine definitely rides like a 55, despite being a 56. I have one bike I love riding that's marked 56 with a factory/shop sticker on the BB but measures 58CTT and I fit nicely with a long-reach stem. But generally I find myself most relaxed at 58 CTC / 59.CTT.

tgot 

I enjoyed some of your blog posts.
[Wait, I enjoyed all of them that I read, but didn't read them all....not that there were some I didn't enjoy]

cocoabeachcrab 

question for Italvega Grand Turismo experts... i have a '73 frame and trying to procure a bottom bracket. the shell measures 68mm. english threads or italian? and if italian, can a BB for a 70mm shell be used here?

answered my own question... i'm all set.

mech986 

So tgot , after 21 months now, did you ever finish the Italvega Gran Turismo build, did you build up enough climb time in Bay Area, and did you go to the May 1, 2022 Eroica California?

And francophile did you eventually sell your Gran Turismo?

tgot 

I did not....

Bike: I started a headset service and repack as the next step, but upon finding the cup surfaces flaking off I took it to a shop for replacement. Done. Then I discovered that stem sizing and fork sizing had the opportunity for ID vs OD mismatch. Grrr... I have a threadless adapter that would at least let me get the bike assembled and functional.

Riding: There was a long bout of knee pain, an MRI showing a variety of moderate damage but nothing actionable, and a round of PT. Now: 20 miles and 1700ft aren't painful anymore, but I've been lazy and not working my way back up to longer rides the way I ought.

Given the answers to the first two questions, it will come as no surprise that I did not go to Eroica CA.

mech986 

Sorry to hear about your setbacks, hope the bike eventually gets built and your riding becomes more regular and longer as conditions permit.

tgot 

Thanks!

tgot 

Ok, I've told myself to at least be making *some* action on bike projects.




Put in the cable stop needed for center pull brakes, which I had failed to give the shop mechanic when I got the headset replaced.

Also, made sure I could find the derailleur hanger beicster had given me, when I was first wondering how a derailleur went on...

I put it on!

tgot 

I test fit the Sugino triple with the 113mm BB, Italian threaded 70mm Shimano UN55.
Looks good to me! Plenty of clearance.


I was confused by recent discussion for the need to Locktite and hard torque the DS of Italian threaded BB.

It seemed to me that the DS was righty-tighty and so pedalling would not tend to loosen that side?

Non-drive-side, righty-tighty, seemed as if that would be the problem direction. Advice sought!

Also, assuming just an DS/NDS confusion, how does one do Locktite installation? I had WD40 I there as I was brushing schmutz out of the threads for the test-fit. Would one clean with mineral spirits or alcohol, and the Locktite the entire bare surfaces? That seems crazy, but so does having bare, clean metal with nothing on it.

Finally, the Shimano NDS has something on the threads:


Is that a thread locker and likely sufficient?
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RustyJames 

That looks like Teflon tape. Probably used to make the cup go in a bit smoother and seal it from crud.

As I recall, Loctite requires a very clean surface to work properly. If you must, use the blue, NOT the red.

Kabuki12

you should check the chain line before getting to far along. For a double the straight edge check works best. Mount the rear wheel and use a straight edge held against the small (your middle) chain ring the edge should fall in the middle of the FW. There is another way to measure based on the middle of the BB shell , but I can't remember the dimension . Maybe another member can provide that. To me , it looks like the crank is too far out, but I don't run a triple. As far as the tightening of the bottom bracket , make sure the thing is tight or they will loosen at about half way through your ride, never when convenient. Italian BB's are notorious for that!

tgot 

Oddly, the other side came with nothing on it.

Hey, I just realized that I don't even know if I've got the two side correct. Threaded end attached to the BB body goes on the drive-side, correct?

[P.S. I also did more reading and understand the counter rotation of the bearings better. It makes sense that the drive side would tend to loosen for a conventional right-tight threading.]

Kabuki12

I don't know if this helps , I don't have the dim. for a triple

tgot 

Thanks to all who pointed out that I should measure the chain line, not just verify that the triple cleared. With various spindles at 117 or 122mm for triples, I had been concerned that my 113mm was long enough.

Instead, it seems too long. I measure ~48-49mm, when Sheldon's page lists 45mm as the target for a triple. There definitely seems to be more than 3mm of space for the chainrings to clear the frame.



The UN-55 box lists 107 as a supported spindle length, I thought I'd just order up a 70x107 Shimano square taper. No problem(o).

But I can't find one. Does anyone have a go-to web store for parts like that?

Is a 107mm spindle crazy for a triple and there must be something wrong? The cranks were pretty well seated (although not bolted) onto the spindle when I measured.

merziac

Yes, yes and yes, clean the BB, that is factory thread locker and should be sufficient if you get the torque right.

rgvg

I have a 113 mm spindle and Sugino XD triple, but it's not the cartridge type. Didn't check the chainline since I don't know how and don't really mind as long as it works. Why is chainline important anyway? Isn't it only perfect for one front chainring/rear cog combination? Wouldn't it be not straight anymore once you shifted up or down?

tgot 

So, the seatpost binder won't pass through the bent-in ears. The non-slotted side in particular won't accept the larger diameter portion.

Maybe I should have used a solid rod to align the ears by bending, before spending time expanding the tube and honing to accept a seatpost.

I think my best plan is to take the binder to a HW store, find a shortish metric bolt that threads into the tabbed side of the bolt, and a washer to keep the bolt entirely outside the non-round opening. I'm a little worried that the tab-outer isnt perpendicular to the path of the bolt.

But: Is there some functional reason the binder bolts have the 8mm (?) barrel section? Is that somehow needed to preserve the shape of the tabs?

Kabuki12

Chain line is very important , not critical, dimension wise , but it must be close or shifting becomes intolerable. So I guess what I am saying is that although it can be off a little , what the OP bike showed prior to my recommending that it be checked would not have worked at all. Yes, the chain line changes from one gear to the next , but the "window" of operation is not as wide as one might think.

Kabuki12

tgot , make sure your cranks are a match for the taper on the spindle . There are two main sizes that are used commonly , JIS or Japanese Standard , and ISO for the European cranks like Campy. The ISO spindle is .0015" per side smaller than the JIS spindle. The taper is the same but the crank seats differently from one to the other. In other words , if you try to put , say , a Campagnolo crank on a JIS spindle , it will sit further out from the BB shell. While you are at it , check to make sure that the cartridge is designed for the BB shell you have . To me it looks like the Cartridge is too wide for the BB shell.

tgot 

A good thing to double check, but the Sugino XD2-600T and the Shimano UN-55 are both JIS according to my google-fu.

My chainline measurement indicated about 49mm. I had researched and thought that 113mm was the recommendation for the XD2. I now see that (at least according to treefortbikes), a recommendation for 110mm (road) instead of 113mm (mountain). I was also perhaps measuring to center of center ring, rather than edge of center ring (as shown on Sheldon's site). So maybe that 1mm and the 110mm spindle's 1.5 mm get 49ish to be 46ish, when everything is tightened down.

The picture I think you're referencing was the cup-side just finger tight, to check threading but not put factory thread-locker into the BB yet.

I do have an FSA, 70mm, Italian, JIS BB on order. 110.5 mm was the best i could do.

BUT: No one has yet answered a question I asked up-thread. The Italian BB has a cup- or socket-like loose side, and a bb-body-threaded side with the cartridges and spindle. Both are right-tight threaded. Which is supposed to go into the Drive-Side?

I had put the body DS, cup NDS. But the thread-locker on the cup makes me wonder if that was wrong. If the loose cup-piece is supposed to be DS, the measurements might be slightly different.

SurferRosa

For cartridge bottom brackets, I've always thread the loose cup in the nds.

SurferRosa

French and Italian bb shells are not reverse threaded on the ds, so they have the reputation for their ds cups to unscrew with pedaling force if they are not mounted properly.