High speed wobble
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High speed wobble
At the start of last weekends GF at 7:30 am with air temp at about 9C I was going down a steep hill to get to the start line. Bike started feeling unstable so I feathered my brakes on the way down. Someone who was riding behind me said it was really scary the way my frame was wobbling on the way down. Bike seemed to be mechanically ok so I rode the 150km and didn't have any reoccurrence.
Wondering if anyone has experienced it and why it happens.
Wondering if anyone has experienced it and why it happens.
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It is sometimes called the death wobble or shimmy and is a characteristic of two wheeled vehicles like bikes and motorcycles. It results from a harmonic resonance vibration characteristic of the bicycle and rider as a system. It is a lot like bridges which start to sway in the wind or when an army is marching across them and eventually collapse and destroy themselves. You can't reliably fix it. Nothing is loose or broken. It is just that the harmonic resonance of the frame, your distributed weight, and all the other doodads on the bike occurs in a speed range that is within your normal experience. It is common on downhills where you may reach the speed where the resonance occurs. Also it is facilitated by not pedaling on downhills and possibly by the weight distribution you assume by a peculiar tuck you only adopt on downhills. There are a few things you can do about it. One is to pedal on downhills. The pedaling motion upsets the resonance and breaks the self-perpetuating wobble. Another thing is to clamp your knees/thighs on the top tube to stabilize the bike and break the wobble. You could also try to redistribute the weight on the bike by how you position yourself.
But bottom line, a bike that does this with you riding will never be totally reliable. Your best bet is to sell the frame and get a different one (brand, model, size, material) to put the same parts on. It is unlikely you would be unlucky enough to have the same problem on two bikes. I had the problem on a Ti bike and sold the frame. Found another one of a different brand. No problem at all. I don't feel bad about selling the frame to someone without warning them, because the problem isn't in the frame per se. There is nothing wrong with it. The whole system just combines to make the problem. So it is unlikely another rider with their own components on the frame would observe the problem.
Here is a definitive article about the problem from an acknowledged frame design expert: https://davesbikeblog.squarespace.com...e-visited.html. Good luck.
But bottom line, a bike that does this with you riding will never be totally reliable. Your best bet is to sell the frame and get a different one (brand, model, size, material) to put the same parts on. It is unlikely you would be unlucky enough to have the same problem on two bikes. I had the problem on a Ti bike and sold the frame. Found another one of a different brand. No problem at all. I don't feel bad about selling the frame to someone without warning them, because the problem isn't in the frame per se. There is nothing wrong with it. The whole system just combines to make the problem. So it is unlikely another rider with their own components on the frame would observe the problem.
Here is a definitive article about the problem from an acknowledged frame design expert: https://davesbikeblog.squarespace.com...e-visited.html. Good luck.
Last edited by rpenmanparker; 09-14-17 at 10:13 AM.
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At the start of last weekends GF at 7:30 am with air temp at about 9C I was going down a steep hill to get to the start line. Bike started feeling unstable so I feathered my brakes on the way down. Someone who was riding behind me said it was really scary the way my frame was wobbling on the way down. Bike seemed to be mechanically ok so I rode the 150km and didn't have any reoccurrence.
Wondering if anyone has experienced it and why it happens.
Wondering if anyone has experienced it and why it happens.
Last time I had it I was trying to get up to 56 mph and entered a turn right on the back end of a car. Didn't want to hit it so I scrubbed speed with the back brake only. Got a serious case of death wobble. Trying to clamp my knees did nothing and I couldn't get off the brakes due to the cars in the way. This is the only time I thought the bike was going to throw me off. Finally did get stopped. I have never been able to duplicate it on this bike. I think it was because it was a new build and first time really using the brakes but I really don't know.
I've had it start before on other bikes from wind or bumps but was always able to calm it with the knees to the top tube.
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#4
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Interesting tidbit related to this. Whenever my brother comes to town we go for a few rides. He borrows my main bike and I ride something else - because my main bike fits him better than my other bikes.
He has experienced wobble on my bike, riding the same hills that I ride frequently. I've never experienced it. We are about the same weight, similar in build, but he is a couple inches taller. Besides that I've always thought it odd that he gets the wobbles on a bike that I find rock solid and I regularly descend the hills in question at 45 mph or more.
He has experienced wobble on my bike, riding the same hills that I ride frequently. I've never experienced it. We are about the same weight, similar in build, but he is a couple inches taller. Besides that I've always thought it odd that he gets the wobbles on a bike that I find rock solid and I regularly descend the hills in question at 45 mph or more.
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Interesting tidbit related to this. Whenever my brother comes to town we go for a few rides. He borrows my main bike and I ride something else - because my main bike fits him better than my other bikes.
He has experienced wobble on my bike, riding the same hills that I ride frequently. I've never experienced it. We are about the same weight, similar in build, but he is a couple inches taller. Besides that I've always thought it odd that he gets the wobbles on a bike that I find rock solid and I regularly descend the hills in question at 45 mph or more.
He has experienced wobble on my bike, riding the same hills that I ride frequently. I've never experienced it. We are about the same weight, similar in build, but he is a couple inches taller. Besides that I've always thought it odd that he gets the wobbles on a bike that I find rock solid and I regularly descend the hills in question at 45 mph or more.
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I've had it happen twice on my cross bike during fast descents: terrified me completely, but like others have noted when I started pedalling (even soft pedalling) it would go away.
I've made a few changes to the bike for reasons not at all related to the wobble (different cassette, new derailleur, different tires) and I've never experienced the wobble again. And now that I think of it, I've lost around 15 pounds from those days so my weight and weight distribution is going to be different on that bike.
Regardless of the reasons, it's never happened to me again on that bike and I haven't experienced it (thankfully) on any of my other bikes.
I've made a few changes to the bike for reasons not at all related to the wobble (different cassette, new derailleur, different tires) and I've never experienced the wobble again. And now that I think of it, I've lost around 15 pounds from those days so my weight and weight distribution is going to be different on that bike.
Regardless of the reasons, it's never happened to me again on that bike and I haven't experienced it (thankfully) on any of my other bikes.
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I've been able to induce that kind of shimmy in all my bikes by riding no-handed on a fast downhill and adjusting my weight a little back and forth. I like to find out how each bike responds under fairly controlled circumstances so it doesn't catch me by surprise. As already noted, the easiest cure is usually to clamp the top tube between your knees.
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interesting, the last time I had this was 30 years ago on a large soft-steel road-bike frame, something like 1018 steel. Cheap Taiwan import.
I've never had it on any of my AL frames or my current Carbon . I would think for a bike you would want a material with a very high resonant frequency, or to put in Audio terms treble instead of Base
according to a Sheldon article, lateral (torsional) stiffness is the factor most responsible in "high speed wobble" and that steel, regardless of alloying has the highest modulus of elasticity. Hence, assuming equal tube size and wall thickness, steel would be the most resistant. This part of the article looks to have been written pre-Carbon
Does anyone know of a rough formula for calculating resonant frequency of bicycle frames in Steel, vs AL , vs CF . I know it will change depending on tubing size, shape, wall thickness etc. but there must a be a rough calculation for the basic materials accounting for tubing size and thickness?
article
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-materials.html
I've never had it on any of my AL frames or my current Carbon . I would think for a bike you would want a material with a very high resonant frequency, or to put in Audio terms treble instead of Base
according to a Sheldon article, lateral (torsional) stiffness is the factor most responsible in "high speed wobble" and that steel, regardless of alloying has the highest modulus of elasticity. Hence, assuming equal tube size and wall thickness, steel would be the most resistant. This part of the article looks to have been written pre-Carbon
Does anyone know of a rough formula for calculating resonant frequency of bicycle frames in Steel, vs AL , vs CF . I know it will change depending on tubing size, shape, wall thickness etc. but there must a be a rough calculation for the basic materials accounting for tubing size and thickness?
article
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-materials.html
Ringing, Damping and Suspension
[This section added by John Allen]
All bicycles have resonant frequencies at which they ring (oscillate) in different ways. You can hear a metal tube ring if you tap it with a fingernail, but resonances below the audible range most affect the feel of a bicycle. For example, "speed wobble" is the frame's ringing in torsion as the head tube tilts relative to the rear triangle, excited by the front wheel's turning slightly to the right and left. This is generally worse with a taller frame, because the front triangle is less stiff in torsion, and the resonant frequency is lower. Resonances also can affect the feel when going over bumps. Two frames which are equally stiff may feel different if they resonate at different frequencies.
Damping is the tendency of ringing to die out. All metal frames have very low damping -- they ring long enough to produce a clear tone. A carbon-fiber frame will give a dull sound if tapped, because carbon fiber has more damping than metal. This may affect the feel to some degree, though much less at the low frequencies which affect frame feel.
Rubber, leather and flesh are highly damped -- and so the greatest damping in a bicycle/rider system by far is in the tires, the saddle and the rider's body, unless the bicycle has suspension.
A suspension fork or frame is a highly-damped resonant system -- if it weren't damped, it would bounce up and down repeatedly after every bump. Suspension, obviously, has a major effect on the feel of a bicycle. Suspension also adds weight, affecting the feel.
Modern bicycle suspensions are mostly rather stiff, intended to protect the rider and bicycle against hard impacts, while minimizing "pogo sticking" due to pedaling out of the saddle. Interestingly, recent research published in Bicycle Quarterly magazine showed that tire choice and tire pressure achieved a much greater difference in comfort than a suspension front fork in a test ride on a bumpy surface! The main reason is that: the unsprung weight of the small part of the tire that flexes is tiny, while that of the wheel and fork is substantial. The rider is not rigidly connected to the bicycle, and so the sprung weight is largely that of the frame and attached components.
[This section added by John Allen]
All bicycles have resonant frequencies at which they ring (oscillate) in different ways. You can hear a metal tube ring if you tap it with a fingernail, but resonances below the audible range most affect the feel of a bicycle. For example, "speed wobble" is the frame's ringing in torsion as the head tube tilts relative to the rear triangle, excited by the front wheel's turning slightly to the right and left. This is generally worse with a taller frame, because the front triangle is less stiff in torsion, and the resonant frequency is lower. Resonances also can affect the feel when going over bumps. Two frames which are equally stiff may feel different if they resonate at different frequencies.
Damping is the tendency of ringing to die out. All metal frames have very low damping -- they ring long enough to produce a clear tone. A carbon-fiber frame will give a dull sound if tapped, because carbon fiber has more damping than metal. This may affect the feel to some degree, though much less at the low frequencies which affect frame feel.
Rubber, leather and flesh are highly damped -- and so the greatest damping in a bicycle/rider system by far is in the tires, the saddle and the rider's body, unless the bicycle has suspension.
A suspension fork or frame is a highly-damped resonant system -- if it weren't damped, it would bounce up and down repeatedly after every bump. Suspension, obviously, has a major effect on the feel of a bicycle. Suspension also adds weight, affecting the feel.
Modern bicycle suspensions are mostly rather stiff, intended to protect the rider and bicycle against hard impacts, while minimizing "pogo sticking" due to pedaling out of the saddle. Interestingly, recent research published in Bicycle Quarterly magazine showed that tire choice and tire pressure achieved a much greater difference in comfort than a suspension front fork in a test ride on a bumpy surface! The main reason is that: the unsprung weight of the small part of the tire that flexes is tiny, while that of the wheel and fork is substantial. The rider is not rigidly connected to the bicycle, and so the sprung weight is largely that of the frame and attached components.
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found the number for CF, about 10% higher Modulus than steel
The modulus of carbon fiber is typically 33 msi (228 GPa) and its ultimate tensile strength is typically 500 ksi (3.5 Gpa). High stiffness and strength carbon fiber materials are also available through specialized heat treatment processes with much higher values. Compare this with 2024-T3 Aluminum, which has a modulus of only 10 msi and ultimate tensile strength of 65 ksi, and 4130 Steel, which has a modulus of 30 msi and ultimate tensile strength of 125 ksi.
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I had a couple bikes that used to wobble like that. Knee to the top tube works also lift yourself off the seat, works too.
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Besides the knees to top tube, lift off the saddle slightly, put the weight in the pedals, also move your weight slightly forward, weighting the bars more. As noted above, also grip lightly and keep arms relaxed. I had some wobble in a strong cross wind and traffic with one wheelset, never any with another wheelset on the same bike.
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I've had it a number of times on my Trek Madone, and my older model as well. I don't think it's as much the bike frame geometry, it just happens sometimes and from what I've read it tends to happen to taller riders with bigger frames. It is scary as hell, since when it happens to me it has always happened on fast down Hills with a headwind coming at me.
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While harmonic resonance or whatnot is surely to blame in some instances for wobble, I've observed it happening to other riders, and usually somewhat new riders finding themselves on a faster downhill. What I've noticed are locked elbows and general tenseness by the newbs finding themselves at 35+mph going down a hill and I believe this is a probable cause for many of the wobble experiences out there.
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Once you feel the wobble, then quickly lock those knees to the top tube. Those legs act as a damping tool. The knees don't have to be tight to the top tube. But vibrations need to travel to the feet that's on the pedals. If you're going to hold tightly, its the feet to the pedals.
This configuration is creating a triangle with the knees at the top and the pedals at the base of the triangle.
This configuration is creating a triangle with the knees at the top and the pedals at the base of the triangle.
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I had it happen, once, on a bike I rode all the time with never an issue. FWIW I realized that I was unusually tense and trying to "muscle" it, I think I was trying to feather the brakes also. I got off the brakes entirely, shifted position and relaxed while holding the bars loosely and the shimmy evaporated instantly. All of that was counter-intuitive but you have to do something to disrupt the harmonics. It never happened again.
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I've only had it happen once; terrifying as hell when you're on a 8.5% down. Wasn't the first time I'd done that downhill, just whatever magical combination of speed, weight distribution and bumps to set it all off. Took my about 500m to get things to a stop and I had pretty much crossed both lanes and was about 1m from the guard rail on the wrong side of the road. Needless to say, I rode the brakes for the rest of the descent
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Wobble is a fairly common occurrence, and it can be caused by a wide range of circumstances that come together to cause the wobble. It is true that some bike/rider systems may be more prone to wobble than others, but unless this becomes a repeated occurrence despite verifying the mechanical soundness of the bike and changing weight distribution, grip or other rider position parameters, I wouldn't think it is necessary to buy a new bike.
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While harmonic resonance or whatnot is surely to blame in some instances for wobble, I've observed it happening to other riders, and usually somewhat new riders finding themselves on a faster downhill. What I've noticed are locked elbows and general tenseness by the newbs finding themselves at 35+mph going down a hill and I believe this is a probable cause for many of the wobble experiences out there.
Hands shaking from cold wind can cause it though.
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Uh, that seems just a little extreme. I've experienced wobble on two bikes (one at high speed, one at low speed), one time on each. I simply changed the rider/bike equation (shifted weight on high speed, loosened grip on bar on low speed) and the problem never cropped up again on either bike.
Wobble is a fairly common occurrence, and it can be caused by a wide range of circumstances that come together to cause the wobble. It is true that some bike/rider systems may be more prone to wobble than others, but unless this becomes a repeated occurrence despite verifying the mechanical soundness of the bike and changing weight distribution, grip or other rider position parameters, I wouldn't think it is necessary to buy a new bike.
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Wobble is a fairly common occurrence, and it can be caused by a wide range of circumstances that come together to cause the wobble. It is true that some bike/rider systems may be more prone to wobble than others, but unless this becomes a repeated occurrence despite verifying the mechanical soundness of the bike and changing weight distribution, grip or other rider position parameters, I wouldn't think it is necessary to buy a new bike.
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Here are bikes I've had this issue on.
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Uh, that seems just a little extreme. I've experienced wobble on two bikes (one at high speed, one at low speed), one time on each. I simply changed the rider/bike equation (shifted weight on high speed, loosened grip on bar on low speed) and the problem never cropped up again on either bike.
Wobble is a fairly common occurrence, and it can be caused by a wide range of circumstances that come together to cause the wobble. It is true that some bike/rider systems may be more prone to wobble than others, but unless this becomes a repeated occurrence despite verifying the mechanical soundness of the bike and changing weight distribution, grip or other rider position parameters, I wouldn't think it is necessary to buy a new bike.
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Wobble is a fairly common occurrence, and it can be caused by a wide range of circumstances that come together to cause the wobble. It is true that some bike/rider systems may be more prone to wobble than others, but unless this becomes a repeated occurrence despite verifying the mechanical soundness of the bike and changing weight distribution, grip or other rider position parameters, I wouldn't think it is necessary to buy a new bike.
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I've been able to induce that kind of shimmy in all my bikes by riding no-handed on a fast downhill and adjusting my weight a little back and forth. I like to find out how each bike responds under fairly controlled circumstances so it doesn't catch me by surprise. As already noted, the easiest cure is usually to clamp the top tube between your knees.
First step most due other than checking hubs for axial lash/end play and wheel true, tire pressure etc is, check the head set for preload. A loose headset can promote this. Some frames are more susceptible than others as well.
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Not a wheel issue at all. Well, I don't think. But I never really got a any flex out of those Williams System 30s. I'd have to dig into my logs but it I remember correctly I think this incident started with wind hitting me. I have a long 8 mile descent where I can hit high speeds but that has a lot of varying degrees turns. So it's the rare day you don't encounter winds on it since you're travelling in different directions throughout the run. This Madone was the more relaxed H2 geometry. My Scott CR1 Pro always felt stiffer than this one.
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I just tried to google for the video and couldn't find it. Funny thing is the ones I did find were C.F bikes, I would have expected most to be steel....
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I remember seeing a video of some crazy dude inducing major wobble by going no hands on a descent and then giving the handlebars a good whack. Now that's nuts!
I just tried to google for the video and couldn't find it. Funny thing is the ones I did find were C.F bikes, I would have expected most to be steel....
I just tried to google for the video and couldn't find it. Funny thing is the ones I did find were C.F bikes, I would have expected most to be steel....
Motorcycles are particularly sensitive to high speed wobble due to wind buffeting. Can be complicated to resolve....referred to as a tank slapper....very scary at high speed.