Omg it happened again...why on earth does 3T use titanium stem bolts?
01-25-12, 04:24 PM
#76
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Please define 'maximum torque', because you are clearly using a different definition than everyone else in manufacturing. Maximum torque means the maximum torque that should be applied to safely and properly tighten fasteners. It is not always the same as recommended torque, but in no case should it EVER cause bolts (or any other part) that are not defective to fail. If this happens, either the bolts are not suitable for the torque specifications, or the torque specifications are wrong.
01-25-12, 04:27 PM
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First of all, I am specifically NOT accusing the OP of this. I merely offer this observation.
My father is a good mechanic. He has always done his own work on cars, motorcycles and bicycles. He reads the manuals and he owns all the proper tools, including torque wrenches.
The guy strips and breaks a lot of bolts. I simply don't know if he applies too much pressure when torquing things down, or if he pulls a quarter-turn past the click, but he ruins a lot more bolts than I do or ever have. (In total and even if you break it down in terms of stripped/broken bolts per hour of work.)
And he recognizes this. When I have him help me do any work-- whether I need help or it's just an excuse for father-son time-- I absolutely torque my own bolts. I very, very rarely strip or break anything.
To elaborate on a few points about torque wrenching--
1. 10 Nm abruptly applied to a clicker wrench set for 5 Nm will make the same click as 5 Nm gradually applied. It's very possible to overtorque if you arrive at the final torque too abruptly. This is especially possible at the low torque values used on bicycles.
2. Torque wrenches can be inaccurate. Cheap ones frequently aren't that accurate to begin with, and all of them become inaccurate over time.
3. Beam wrenches are far better than clickers. Beam wrenches encourage (practially require) you to arrive at the final torque gently, whereas you can get the job done faster with a clicker.
4. People tend to overtighten fasteners of all types. It is a good idea in this specific instance, stem bolts, to set your torque wrench lower and try to twist the bars. Go for a test ride (outdoors or on trainer) and gently test then stop and try to twist the bars. Then sprint. If you pass all those tests at lower-than-max torque, bonus.
My father is a good mechanic. He has always done his own work on cars, motorcycles and bicycles. He reads the manuals and he owns all the proper tools, including torque wrenches.
The guy strips and breaks a lot of bolts. I simply don't know if he applies too much pressure when torquing things down, or if he pulls a quarter-turn past the click, but he ruins a lot more bolts than I do or ever have. (In total and even if you break it down in terms of stripped/broken bolts per hour of work.)
And he recognizes this. When I have him help me do any work-- whether I need help or it's just an excuse for father-son time-- I absolutely torque my own bolts. I very, very rarely strip or break anything.
To elaborate on a few points about torque wrenching--
1. 10 Nm abruptly applied to a clicker wrench set for 5 Nm will make the same click as 5 Nm gradually applied. It's very possible to overtorque if you arrive at the final torque too abruptly. This is especially possible at the low torque values used on bicycles.
2. Torque wrenches can be inaccurate. Cheap ones frequently aren't that accurate to begin with, and all of them become inaccurate over time.
3. Beam wrenches are far better than clickers. Beam wrenches encourage (practially require) you to arrive at the final torque gently, whereas you can get the job done faster with a clicker.
4. People tend to overtighten fasteners of all types. It is a good idea in this specific instance, stem bolts, to set your torque wrench lower and try to twist the bars. Go for a test ride (outdoors or on trainer) and gently test then stop and try to twist the bars. Then sprint. If you pass all those tests at lower-than-max torque, bonus.
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01-25-12, 06:18 PM
#78
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Can anyone tell me where I might find the exact steel bolts 3T uses in the ARX? I stopped by a few LBS in this area and nobody had a set of matching steel bolts. I'm trying to find the exact ones without resorting to an ARX Pro just for the steel bolts. Thanks...
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01-25-12, 06:58 PM
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Sure if you're experienced you don't usually need a torque wrench but when you're dealing with expensive light parts it's MORE important to use one, and use it properly. If a fastener breaks under the rated torque it's because an engineer (if an actual engineer was even responsible) ****ed up somewhere. If you buy an expensive lightweight part, it's pretty safe to assume someone that knows more about what they're doing than you thought about the torque spec.
Freds like you are why the knowledgable people don't stick around this place.
Note POS little clicker thing is NOT a substitute for a real torque wrench.
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01-25-12, 07:15 PM
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^ What are you even talking about?
Sure if you're experienced you don't usually need a torque wrench but when you're dealing with expensive light parts it's MORE important to use one, and use it properly. If a fastener breaks under the rated torque it's because an engineer (if an actual engineer was even responsible) ****ed up somewhere. If you buy an expensive lightweight part, it's pretty safe to assume someone that knows more about what they're doing than you thought about the torque spec.
Freds like you are why the knowledgable people don't stick around this place.
Note POS little clicker thing is NOT a substitute for a real torque wrench.
Sure if you're experienced you don't usually need a torque wrench but when you're dealing with expensive light parts it's MORE important to use one, and use it properly. If a fastener breaks under the rated torque it's because an engineer (if an actual engineer was even responsible) ****ed up somewhere. If you buy an expensive lightweight part, it's pretty safe to assume someone that knows more about what they're doing than you thought about the torque spec.
Freds like you are why the knowledgable people don't stick around this place.
Note POS little clicker thing is NOT a substitute for a real torque wrench.
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01-25-12, 07:29 PM
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Ah, WTH, I'll indulge you.
Good so far.
It's more important to know what you are doing than to rely on a torque wrench. You need to understand how to bring a fastener up to a torque sufficient to hold the part reliably and no higher.
Assuming that the person measuring the torque knows what he is doing. That's a pretty big assumption here.
And?
Freds like Sheldon Brown are often the most knowledgable mechanics:
"A "torque wrench" is a type of wrench with a built-in spring-loaded indicator that gives a numerical readout of the amount of torque being applied through it.
This is primarily an automotive tool, especially useful for applications involving crushable gaskets which must be tightened evenly.
Torque wrenches are never needed for bicycle work, although they can be a useful training aid for inexperienced mechanics who haven't learned the feel of a properly-tightened fastener. "
Correct.
but when you're dealing with expensive light parts it's MORE important to use one, and use it properly.
If a fastener breaks under the rated torque it's because an engineer (if an actual engineer was even responsible) ****ed up somewhere.
If you buy an expensive lightweight part, it's pretty safe to assume someone that knows more about what they're doing than you thought about the torque spec.
Freds like you are why the knowledgable people don't stick around this place.
"A "torque wrench" is a type of wrench with a built-in spring-loaded indicator that gives a numerical readout of the amount of torque being applied through it.
This is primarily an automotive tool, especially useful for applications involving crushable gaskets which must be tightened evenly.
Torque wrenches are never needed for bicycle work, although they can be a useful training aid for inexperienced mechanics who haven't learned the feel of a properly-tightened fastener. "
Note POS little clicker thing is NOT a substitute for a real torque wrench.
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01-25-12, 07:57 PM
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Materials technology has come a long was compared to the bikes Sheldon Brown (RIP) had experience working on (he was definitely a vintage guy, in fact I remember him responding to questions I asked on this very forum as a noob). Because of the high modulus and sudden failure mode of composite materials and metals like hardened ti alloys there's a lot less room for error than when you're dealing with steel or big chunks of aluminum. Also stuff like modern crank designs (GXP, campy PT) require fairly high amounts of torque, and can cause failures if they're not tight enough. It's hard to tell unless you have a torque wrench...
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01-25-12, 08:13 PM
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Materials technology has come a long was compared to the bikes Sheldon Brown (RIP) had experience working on (he was definitely a vintage guy, in fact I remember him responding to questions I asked on this very forum as a noob). Because of the high modulus and sudden failure mode of composite materials and metals like hardened ti alloys there's a lot less room for error than when you're dealing with steel or big chunks of aluminum. Also stuff like modern crank designs (GXP, campy PT) require fairly high amounts of torque, and can cause failures if they're not tight enough. It's hard to tell unless you have a torque wrench...
The editorial update on torque settings since Sheldon's passing expands on this:
"[I find this generally to be true, but many bicycle components now are accompanied with spec sheets with lists of torque settings. There are two reasons for this:
Consultants to attorneys measure torque values, leading to an excess of caution by the manufacturers
Some components made of unusual materials (carbon fiber seatposts, aluminum bolts) require lower torque settings than for other parts of the same general type.
This paragraph added by John Allen] "
I'm guessing by your user name that you come to cycling from an automotive background where the use of torque wrenches is often very important, but it's a misapplication of that experience to assume that the same is true for bicycles. I spent the better part of a decade repairing light industrial machinery where the applications for torque wrenches were rare but important in those very few instances. Bicycles just aren't cars or injection molding machines.
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01-25-12, 09:45 PM
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Well, to each their own, I just dislike blanket statements such as bikes don't need torque wrenches at all. I think there are definitely some cases where it's at minimum very helpful to know an exact torque spec, for consistency if not necessity.
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01-25-12, 10:51 PM
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I try not to come to conclusions based on insufficient data. Could be bad bolts, could be user error. There's no way to tell based on the content of the thread.
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01-26-12, 08:23 AM
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so the occurrence of others breaking 3T titanium bolts, but having no trouble with other stems doesn't sway you at all, eh.. still seems equally likely to be user error or bad bolt?
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01-26-12, 08:49 AM
#90
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My new stem
Halfspeed I think you're right but saying it wrong. Torque wrenches aren't magical devices that suddenly allow fasteners to defy the laws of physics. It's like anti-lock braking, all wheel drive, and traction control - people driving these assisted cars think that they can blast into a turn at 50 mph in snow/ice conditions, not taking into account that the actual thing determining if they'll retain control is the tire's traction on whatever surface is under it. It's interesting to see who goes off the road when it starts to snow.
At any rate, improperly torquing something can be just as bad as overtightening (I'm thinking things like head bolts on an engine, where you end up loading up one bolt more than the others because you try and torque each bolt up to full spec when you first torque the bolt).
When I cut my teeth doing bike mechanics, my teacher scoffed at ratchet sets, telling me that I'd have a much better feel for the bolt/nut by using a regular open/combo wrench. He was right - I learned how to tighten things pretty well, at least for little things.
However, torque wrenches can help educate less experienced users in a definitive way, much like power meters help cyclists analyze their pedaling effect/power (instead of using just speed or gear/cadence).
The bike world is relatively new to torque wrenches. There will always be people who don't use them, those that don't use them properly, and the majority of folks who fall under the center of the bell curve - users who use them within design parameters. Maybe not "right" but not too "wrong".
01-26-12, 09:21 AM
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I'm still struggling with how a device that allows you to know exactly how much torque is being applied is worse than "feel". I get that some people can be pretty good with feel and maybe not need one, but if you know how to use a good torque wrench you should never go wrong. I'm pretty good with feel too, but when it comes to carbon or Ti, I'm going to follow factory recommended torque specs with a device that lets me know if I did it right.
Last edited by pallen; 01-26-12 at 09:55 AM.
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01-26-12, 09:46 AM
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Man you torque wrench nazis are relentless. I grew up riding bmx and was building bikes and constantly taking them apart. I learned how to assemble an entire bike by "feel" when I was 12. Only thing is those bikes were all steel and aluminum. I can install a derailleur on an expensive CF bike going just by feel and would never wirry because it's just a derailleur. A stem on a lightweight CF steerer is a completely different story. My safety is involved and I think it's safer to use a torque wrench for this application. Torque ratings aren't always MAX ratings btw. Sometimes they are very specific torque values that are intended for safe and proper operation. It's pointless to compare bicycles to automobiles, machinery, injection molding machines, or anything else unrelated where a torque wrench may or may not be used. Even comparing to normal bikes is dumb. These are specialized CF race bikes and in some instances a torque wrench is the best way to go, even if you have super wrench "feel" like I consider myself to have. Get over yourselves.
01-26-12, 12:09 PM
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It's a fact that defective bolts exist and some number of failures greater than zero may, in fact, be attributable to bad bolt(s). However, I'd be a lot more inclined to believe that it is a pervasive problem if we were hearing of multiple failures from professional mechanics.
After all, twenty-five years ago enough people believed that the Audi 5000 was capable of mysteriously accelerating that both NHTSA and the Canadian equivalent carried out investigations into the phenomenon and came to the same conclusion: user error.
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01-26-12, 12:10 PM
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My new stem
Halfspeed I think you're right but saying it wrong. Torque wrenches aren't magical devices that suddenly allow fasteners to defy the laws of physics. It's like anti-lock braking, all wheel drive, and traction control - people driving these assisted cars think that they can blast into a turn at 50 mph in snow/ice conditions, not taking into account that the actual thing determining if they'll retain control is the tire's traction on whatever surface is under it. It's interesting to see who goes off the road when it starts to snow.
At any rate, improperly torquing something can be just as bad as overtightening (I'm thinking things like head bolts on an engine, where you end up loading up one bolt more than the others because you try and torque each bolt up to full spec when you first torque the bolt).
When I cut my teeth doing bike mechanics, my teacher scoffed at ratchet sets, telling me that I'd have a much better feel for the bolt/nut by using a regular open/combo wrench. He was right - I learned how to tighten things pretty well, at least for little things.
However, torque wrenches can help educate less experienced users in a definitive way, much like power meters help cyclists analyze their pedaling effect/power (instead of using just speed or gear/cadence).
The bike world is relatively new to torque wrenches. There will always be people who don't use them, those that don't use them properly, and the majority of folks who fall under the center of the bell curve - users who use them within design parameters. Maybe not "right" but not too "wrong".
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01-26-12, 06:34 PM
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I'm still struggling with how a device that allows you to know exactly how much torque is being applied is worse than "feel". I get that some people can be pretty good with feel and maybe not need one, but if you know how to use a good torque wrench you should never go wrong. I'm pretty good with feel too, but when it comes to carbon or Ti, I'm going to follow factory recommended torque specs with a device that lets me know if I did it right.
Is that maximum to protect the stem, the bolts, the faceplate and steerer clamp, or the bars and steerer? If the latter, has 3T conducted extensive testing to assure that every steerer and bar can handle that clamping force or is there an industry standard tolerance? If the bolts, then do you know that 5 Nm is the appropriate torque for your bike's bars and steerer?
Is that maximum an actual hard limit or is there some upper tolerance built in? If so, is that tolerance wider than the manufacturing tolerances of the types of affordable torque wrenches commonly sold for working on bicycle parts? Does it account for calibration drift in those tools over six months? A year? Five years?
If I decide to install different bars, am I doing it right if I tighten each face plate bolt to 5 Nm starting in the upper left corner and proceding sequentially?
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01-26-12, 07:04 PM
#96
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Neither. Only mentioned cranks because The Sram Rival one requires so much force to snug up, the first time you install one, you think something is wrong with it. Evidently the spec is for King Kong size torque, so a wrench the 1st go around would ease any doubts.
Been working on things since 'round age 12 when I got my 1st Honda motorbike. You develop feel. I don't break bolts, crush carbon and things don't slip or work loose. Hard for a cassette ring to loosen unless you roll backwards a lot and the fine threads on a BB shell I trust to feel and a little loctite blue.
Been working on things since 'round age 12 when I got my 1st Honda motorbike. You develop feel. I don't break bolts, crush carbon and things don't slip or work loose. Hard for a cassette ring to loosen unless you roll backwards a lot and the fine threads on a BB shell I trust to feel and a little loctite blue.
01-26-12, 07:33 PM
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Neither. Only mentioned cranks because The Sram Rival one requires so much force to snug up, the first time you install one, you think something is wrong with it. Evidently the spec is for King Kong size torque, so a wrench the 1st go around would ease any doubts.
Been working on things since 'round age 12 when I got my 1st Honda motorbike. You develop feel. I don't break bolts, crush carbon and things don't slip or work loose. Hard for a cassette ring to loosen unless you roll backwards a lot and the fine threads on a BB shell I trust to feel and a little loctite blue.
Been working on things since 'round age 12 when I got my 1st Honda motorbike. You develop feel. I don't break bolts, crush carbon and things don't slip or work loose. Hard for a cassette ring to loosen unless you roll backwards a lot and the fine threads on a BB shell I trust to feel and a little loctite blue.
Their lockring spec isn't about loosening (and how does a lockring loosen by rolling backwards???- Are you talking about using a lockring on an old threaded hub with a fixed cog?) it is also about compression so that the spacing between cogs is spot on.
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01-26-12, 08:17 PM
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I use a torque wrench to determine the torque required and then get consistancy when I rebuild something. My colnago seat post is the classic example. It has 8 Nm written on it, i know from experience that it will fold in half at 8Nm. I also know that at 3.4 Nm the seat will move over time. At 3.6 Nm the saddle ramains clamped. Unfortunately 3.6Nm is enough to cause the clamp to bend over time.
Conclusion, the Colnago seat clamp is a piece of junk.
Solution I bought a Deda seat post. Unfortunately due to the articulation of the head of the post and the fact that no allowence has been made in the design for the bolt angle to change as the seat is levelled, it is actually impossible to clamp the seat without bending one of the bolts. This clamp is also junk.
I need a new seat post.
the torque wrench just allowed me to determine with accuracy that neither clamp is any good becasue I was able to accurately tighten new bolts less than i previously did and learn that the torque required to clamp the seat was beyond what either clamp/bolt arrangement could take. I dont understand what is so hard about designing a seat clamp!
Conclusion, the Colnago seat clamp is a piece of junk.
Solution I bought a Deda seat post. Unfortunately due to the articulation of the head of the post and the fact that no allowence has been made in the design for the bolt angle to change as the seat is levelled, it is actually impossible to clamp the seat without bending one of the bolts. This clamp is also junk.
I need a new seat post.
the torque wrench just allowed me to determine with accuracy that neither clamp is any good becasue I was able to accurately tighten new bolts less than i previously did and learn that the torque required to clamp the seat was beyond what either clamp/bolt arrangement could take. I dont understand what is so hard about designing a seat clamp!
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01-27-12, 06:54 AM
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You'd mentioned never to use a torque wrench "Torque wrenches are never needed for bicycle work". A blanket statement like that is difficult to back up because someone, somewhere, will find an exception. You follow it with a disclaimer "although they can be a useful training aid for inexperienced mechanics who haven't learned the feel of a properly-tightened fastener". But the first part is the unclear part.
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01-27-12, 08:22 AM
#100
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Maybe bikes are spec'd differently than other torque applications, but generally when a torque spec is listed by a manufacturer, it is the recommended torque that should be applied on assembly. This isnt tire pressure.
If a bolt breaks with a properly calibrated torque wrench I can only think of 3 possibilities
1. The recommended torque setting was wrong.
2. User error (continued tightening after the click, improper setting, etc...)
3. Defective part.
If a bolt breaks with a properly calibrated torque wrench I can only think of 3 possibilities
1. The recommended torque setting was wrong.
2. User error (continued tightening after the click, improper setting, etc...)
3. Defective part.
