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Supplements for recovery/improvement for seniors

Old 11-17-22, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
How do you know it was aFib? I've had Premature Ventricular Contractions (PVCs), which one might mistake for aFib. In my case, they were due to dehydration from trying to cut down on night trips. I drank a tall glass of water and they quit. I knew they were PVCs because I'd been trying to take my HRV and could see them on my HRV phone app and also feel them in my pulse.

There actually are no studies linking creatine to any heart problems. There are a lot of anti-supplement folks out there who would like there to be, but there just aren't any. Same with HMB. Here's the International Society of Sports Nutrition position stand: creatine supplementation and exercise
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2048496/

That said, supplements which increase performance can cause athletes who aren't monitoring their vitals to overreach, which can cause heart problems. I've been taking my morning resting and resting-standing heart rates for decades and my HRV for over 2000 days, so says my phone. I use the results to make sure I'm not overdoing it and to modify my workouts if it looks like I might be.
It is more that there are reports of specific cases of aFib with creatine, e.g. https://accpjournals.onlinelibrary.w...25.5.762.63580 is one, and I found some others. So it is not common but arises in some people it appears. I'm going to take a break for awhile and see if I stop getting the events or not. I looked pretty hard and found zilch for HMB causing any heart issues.

I don't actually know what is off with my heart, these aFibs are just from the Apple Watch. I think it could in fact be skipped or extra beats. It seems to be correlated with dehydration and heart stress (not during exercise but after). I wore a Holter Monitor and nothing major came up. I saw one electrophysiologist a few months ago and I am seeing an expert next month.
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Old 11-17-22, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by scottfsmith View Post
It is more that there are reports of specific cases of aFib with creatine, e.g. https://accpjournals.onlinelibrary.w...25.5.762.63580 is one, and I found some others. So it is not common but arises in some people it appears. I'm going to take a break for awhile and see if I stop getting the events or not. I looked pretty hard and found zilch for HMB causing any heart issues.

I don't actually know what is off with my heart, these aFibs are just from the Apple Watch. I think it could in fact be skipped or extra beats. It seems to be correlated with dehydration and heart stress (not during exercise but after). I wore a Holter Monitor and nothing major came up. I saw one electrophysiologist a few months ago and I am seeing an expert next month.
What does the watch show? When I've ridden with people who'd aFib, they see a sudden rise in HR, like from a normal 130 on a climb to 175, which rate their heart will not normally beat, so it's just well, aFib. When they stop riding and rest, the diplayed HR drops to normal levels. That said, there are folks who have it really bad and they just fib all the time, but of course they can't ride anymore. Checking one's wrist is a good thing. If it's an irregular beat, like PVC's, you'll feel it in your pulse. If it's aFib, your HRM will show this crazy high beat, but you won't feel that super rapid beat in your wrist. I think "extra beats" is called PVC, but I'm not a cardiologist, I just know several of them by now.

That link refers to an association, which is meaningless. Causation is a completely different thing. There are millions of people who take creatine, the most studied supplement there is. That said, its effect is relatively subtle, a matter of a few percentage points. I don't think you'll miss it.

Holters are old tech now. I just mailed in a Zio XT monitor: https://www.irhythmtech.com/provider...e/zio-monitors
I won't know if it showed anything for a couple weeks. I get a nuclear treadmill stress test on the 21st of this month. Maybe that'll be interesting, maybe not. My issue is that I had a syncope event while riding my rollers. Upset my wife no end. Trying to figure out why. My Garmin was recording and showed a steady HR. In the meantime, I'm limited to riding rollers in our shop and going to the gym.
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Old 11-17-22, 09:51 PM
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The data on the watch looks like gibberish to me, 55 - 80 - 105 - 130 etc over a few seconds. The HR never is very high since I get these when not exercising. But it is bouncing all over the place and it stays that way for awhile. I definitely feel funny so its not just the watch acting up.

I found a more convincing link on the creatine aFib earlier but can't find it now. I agree that one article is not saying much. Overall my impression is for nearly everyone creatine is fine but it could be bad for a few people. This is similar to an allergy kind of thing.

My monitor was also a Zio. I thought Holter was just the type of monitor. I guess it is like "Band-Aid", was a brand now a generic name? Good luck with your Zio. I also got a few other tests which showed mostly nothing. Something is not right for me, but hopefully it will stay minor and not kill me any time soon 😁
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Old 11-17-22, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by scottfsmith View Post
The data on the watch looks like gibberish to me, 55 - 80 - 105 - 130 etc over a few seconds. The HR never is very high since I get these when not exercising. But it is bouncing all over the place and it stays that way for awhile. I definitely feel funny so its not just the watch acting up.

I found a more convincing link on the creatine aFib earlier but can't find it now. I agree that one article is not saying much. Overall my impression is for nearly everyone creatine is fine but it could be bad for a few people. This is similar to an allergy kind of thing.

My monitor was also a Zio. I thought Holter was just the type of monitor. I guess it is like "Band-Aid", was a brand now a generic name? Good luck with your Zio. I also got a few other tests which showed mostly nothing. Something is not right for me, but hopefully it will stay minor and not kill me any time soon 😁
That does sound like aFib. Too bad it didn't do that for the Zio. Try cutting out caffeine. That worked for some of my aFib friends. Do check your pulse.
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Old 11-18-22, 07:53 AM
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Yes caffeine is definitely a factor for me as well, also sugar. My concern about the supplements is they are just piling on, and I would rather cut that out than caffeine. In other words think of creatine as similar to caffeine, very few issues for nearly everyone but a few people who need to watch it.
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Old 11-18-22, 08:04 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by scottfsmith View Post
It is more that there are reports of specific cases of aFib with creatine, e.g. https://accpjournals.onlinelibrary.w...25.5.762.63580 is one, and I found some others. So it is not common but arises in some people it appears. I'm going to take a break for awhile and see if I stop getting the events or not. I looked pretty hard and found zilch for HMB causing any heart issues.
I don't actually know what is off with my heart, these aFibs are just from the Apple Watch. I think it could in fact be skipped or extra beats. It seems to be correlated with dehydration and heart stress (not during exercise but after). I wore a Holter Monitor and nothing major came up. I saw one electrophysiologist a few months ago and I am seeing an expert next month.
AFIB becomes apparent in others way as well as what appears on your device.
In my case, I've had exercise induced AFIB for decades (4+?) . Besides an increased heart rate, when I have an episode I get a 'chewing on aluminum foil' taste in the mouth, and within seconds will become completely gassed. The 'aluminum foil taste' tell is an immediate thing.
I always wear my chest strap based monitor, on every ride, and even when doing other heavy exertion things...
A heartrate jump from 100 to 140's or more may not be AFIB. AFIB usually manifest in super high heart rates. WHen it happens to me, the rate will go from 175 to 240. IN my younger years, if I went up to 190, I would get episodes, with apparent heart rate of 245-250. Now, at 73, when I'm over 175, the chance of AFIB becomes great and will read 230ish... So, I try to never go much over 170. If that happens on a hard climb/ride, I bail until the heartrate goes well below 155..
I haven't tried an apple watch, but all the wrist monitor devices I have tried show very variable heartrates. I've used wrist and chest strap monitors concurrently and when wrist devices were showing great variability in rate, the chest strap monitor was much steadier readouts.
Commonly, if I'm under sudden and hard stress, like a hard, steep climb or a sudden surge in a group ride, my heart rate jumps incredibly fast and high. I'll go from 120 to 150 in a matter of 15-20 seconds - completely skipping the 140s... Others may be different, but that's 'normal' for me... been that way even when I was 'younger' ( I was already 'older' when portable HRMs become available in the late 80's and early 90's).
If HR is an important metric, as it is to me, the chest strap devices are still the best for reliable info.

Supplements...
I'm not big on supplements, although I have tried many. I had some experience with anabolics in my early 'Uni' days, and they gave dramatic results, with dramatic issues; so I'm very leery of supplement hype.
That said, it was determined that my Vit D levels were on the low border, so I do take 5000 units daily. Has helped me over a longer span.
The recent 'HMB' thread had me give it a try, and it sure seems to have helped in my general overall and muscle recovery. I don;t feel any real strength improvements, but the general muscle ability to undergo stress and recover/come back quickly after a hard effort, has improved to what I feel is 'normal'. I'm now taking 2g/day.

Things I think are key.
Good rest and sleep. A solid 7.5 to 8 hrs of good sleep makes a huge difference for me. During my 4 yrs of chemo, my sleep has been spotty at best. It's taken many months to get back to solid sleep.
I also find that keeping a warm (not overly) temp under covers helps nighttime recovery.
Also a firm believer on the recovery induced by good post-ride massage. I try to do at least 30 minutes of self-massage after every hard ride. And if the muscles are 'wooden' after a ride, any ride, -> self massage.
If I'm a bit depleted after a ride, I'll do a drink with some whey protein (chocolate oat, almond or 'plant' milk - never soy) or a smoothie with real fruit,(apple, banana, strawberry,bluebberry, mango, etc, beet root juice and chick peas, bean sprouts, whey.
Sleep and rest = #1
Ride on
Yuri

EDIT: Just remembered... If I expect a ride to go out hard from the very start or if the early part of a ride is long, hard climbing - I will take one tab of 'Sports Legs' along with one or two tabs of Calcium Lactate (600mg ea). These do help me get over the initial really hard efforts, without the leg muscle becoming overtaken by whatever causes the 'blocking' of muscle capacity and might cause the 'stone' effect.
It helps especially when I'm not able to get a proper warmup into my legs.

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Old 11-19-22, 10:37 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by scottfsmith View Post
Yes caffeine is definitely a factor for me as well, also sugar. My concern about the supplements is they are just piling on, and I would rather cut that out than caffeine. In other words think of creatine as similar to caffeine, very few issues for nearly everyone but a few people who need to watch it.
IME more many more people have issues with caffeine than have issues with other supplements. But try the strap and other device option first. You need a reliable read on what's going on. Wrist devices do not fill that need. My wife and I each use two different devices for different sports. We use a Garmin Edge device with a Garmin strap on the bike. For everything else we use a Polar device and H10 Bluetooth strap. We both are using Polar V800 devices bought used on ebay. They've been working fine for many years.
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Old 11-19-22, 04:43 PM
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The watch readings are from when I am not exercising. I have a Wahoo TICKR chest strap for the bike. I watch the heart readings carefully, I track HR vs power and can tell when something is even starting to go off a bit. None of these events are anything major at all, so far it is dehydration / hunger / adrenalin / overheating giving me at most 10-15 bps above what I expect for the given effort.

I don’t know if the supplements are making any difference but I am going to be cautious on everything for a good while here. Once I am in the clear for say six months I will start adding things back. I am also sticking more religiously to “zone 2” training, I think I was doing mainly sweet spot when I thought I was in zone 2, and I was getting pretty wiped out after a 2-3 hours ride. The heart issues on my watch were after such high-exercise rides. I just did 2.5 hours being good about staying in zone 2 and I feel great. I stopped at a coffee shop halfway through and had a decaf cappucino .. easing up on the caffeine a bit as well.
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Old 11-20-22, 07:48 AM
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In addition to incorporating numerous plant foods (weeds) I harvest from my yard, which I allow to grow; I am always making various types of bone broth. It's much different than just eating meat, because you don't get all the nutrients that are left in and connected to the bone of the animal.


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Old 11-29-22, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by cyclezen View Post
Just remembered... If I expect a ride to go out hard from the very start or if the early part of a ride is long, hard climbing - I will take one tab of 'Sports Legs' along with one or two tabs of Calcium Lactate (600mg ea). These do help me get over the initial really hard efforts, without the leg muscle becoming overtaken by whatever causes the 'blocking' of muscle capacity and might cause the 'stone' effect.
It helps especially when I'm not able to get a proper warmup into my legs.
Really good post Yuri.
The quoted section is very interesting because starting out hard without a warmup has a terrible effect on my ride, and I'll look into these.
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