1989Pre 

I recently had a vintage wheel built, and have encountered four (4) spokes breaking within 6 weeks on gentle terrain at moderate pace. (I am finally, seriously considering building my own). I was examining the installed spoke heads, today, and noticed that a few of the heads were not flush with the inside of the hub flange (they were slightly tipped). I don't think I could take a photo that would capture this, but I guess my best question, at this time, is: Do I need to re-build this wheel? 27" 40H Super Champion Modele 58 rim , British Hub Company Eureka short-flange hub, Robergel Trois Etoiles 15g spokes 308mm,

davidad

Usually proper tension beds the spokes in the hub flange.

3alarmer 

....and the momentary overstresses induced by properly stress relieving at the end of the build.
OP, you would probably be within your rights as a consumer to question the person who provided you this service.

At the very least, take a good look at the spoke line on your wheel for flange support at the spoke ends, and tensions.

If you haven't ridden the wheel all that far, replacing the broken spokes, and retensioning the whole wheel after correcting any deficiencies with flange support, then destressing the final product, would be more reasonable than entirely rebuilding the wheel. The remaining spokes are probably fine, just maybe not carefully assembled.


If you plan on doing much of this olde bike thing, learning enough to properly build your own wheels is a worthwhile endeavor.

masi61

I don’t think J bend spoke head’s beveled rivet is meant to sit entirely flush to the spoke hole anyway. So you might be OK. Could you post a photo?

1989Pre 

Thanks for the helpful comments and suggestions, masi61, 3alarmer and davidad.
Here are a couple of photos. I was thinking about what 3alarmer said about "flange support".
It seems to me that the j-bends arc away from the flange in these photos. Should they be more flush?

JaccoW

Yes they should. Sort of. Modern spokes are made for thicker aluminum hubs so you need spoke washers, thin brass rings. Both Sapim as well as DT Swiss sell them. About two per spoke should work.

I've put them on my rando build for decorative reasons but you get the idea:


Off-topic: Wheel Building: A Little Washer Can Make a Big Difference by John Neugent

3alarmer 

...the interior exiting spokes can be a little bit more difficult to bend over against the flange, but I use an old alloy non drive crank arm as a pry to destress the spokes and it also serves to bend the interior exiting spokes more toward the flange where they need the support. It's hard to describe nin words, but I wrap the crank arm in duct tape where it contacts the spokes when inserted on one side going up and out on the upper pair of spokes at that space, and down and in on the lower ones. Both of these spoke pairs are on the same side of the wheel. Then press on the outward end at the top, with the lower end pushing outward on the interior spoke of that lower spoke pair. That usually does it on my wheels.

The top end is the knob where the crank spindle would insert, in normal use. You can also use a piece of wood, of similar length and thickness. Just don't use anything made of something that will scratch the spoke surface.

I haven't built a wheel on a two piece hub like that, with the alloy flanges added onto a steel body for quite some time now, but IIRC, they were roughly similar to a modern alloy hub in flange thickness. Measure one against a standard modern hub just to be certain. It is true that on an older hub with steel flanges, like a SA three speed hub, the flange width can be problematic if you don't use washers. But having said that, I have built SA 3sped wheels without washers and they seem to hold up OK. They certainly did not use them at the factory.

Mostly, you're trying to get the spokes pretty tight, in hopes that the tension will contribute to an acceptable line. And to relieve the stresses built into the J bend at the time of manufacture.

mrrabbit 

You're using 7.0mm spoke elbows on thin steel flanges.

You'll need to use 1-2 spoke head washers on each when lacing up the wheel.

Then make sure you properly stress relieve the wheels when building 'em.

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