E-Bikes on Greenways?
06-06-21, 11:25 PM
#26
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I've seen a few e-bikes on the greenways I most often ride. The riders have been pleasant, and I've found it nice to see them out there. One passed me over the weekend, ringing a bell to give notice. I caught up at an intersection afterwards and said hi. Didn't mention the e-bike, but I did look to see it if it was one.
I was bothered a bit yesterday, however, at two apparently drunk guys riding a golf cart on the trail. I'm not sure who I should alert about that, if anyone. That's off topic, but I want to share it somewhere.
I was bothered a bit yesterday, however, at two apparently drunk guys riding a golf cart on the trail. I'm not sure who I should alert about that, if anyone. That's off topic, but I want to share it somewhere.
06-07-21, 01:40 PM
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Eventually someone will have to draw a line between eBikes and eMotorcycles. I mean, can I drive my Tesla on the golf cart paths? I could take my own electric golf cart. So much easier to just drive my electric luxury car to the course, then to each hole. Why not? It's the 'why nots' that will eventually categorize eBikes into OK for bike paths and TOO MUCH for bike paths. Just guessing really. So far there aren't enough of them where I live to pay much attention.
A fully electric Harley Davidson has a top speed near 100mph and 105HP. I'm guessing that's too much for a greenway although it could be ridden at 20mph right? Where will the eBike category end and the eMotorcycle begin? I test rode a Specialized eBike and hit 40mph on it. Pedal assist. Is that too much? Who gets to answer this question?
A fully electric Harley Davidson has a top speed near 100mph and 105HP. I'm guessing that's too much for a greenway although it could be ridden at 20mph right? Where will the eBike category end and the eMotorcycle begin? I test rode a Specialized eBike and hit 40mph on it. Pedal assist. Is that too much? Who gets to answer this question?
Last edited by JoeyBike; 06-07-21 at 01:50 PM.
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06-07-21, 01:59 PM
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Eventually someone will have to draw a line between eBikes and eMotorcycles. I mean, can I drive my Tesla on the golf cart paths? I could take my own electric golf cart. So much easier to just drive my electric luxury car to the course, then to each hole. Why not? It's the 'why nots' that will eventually categorize eBikes into OK for bike paths and TOO MUCH for bike paths. Just guessing really. So far there aren't enough of them where I live to pay much attention.
Most states define electric bikes as being powered for less than 20 mph and less than 750 watts. Louisiana defines them completely differently as "motorized bicycles" limited to 25 mph, and also requires that you have a drivers license if it exceeds 5 hp. . They're allowed on bike paths unless otherwise forbidden.
But yeah, the line can get kind of blurry.
06-07-21, 02:42 PM
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I've always seen the lines very blurry between Ebikes and mopeds/scooters. This website attempts to differentiate. What's funny is that the majority of ebike riders I see aren't getting much exercise, either they're not pedaling or their pedaling is so freakin' effortless.
Whatever the laws are today, they are going to have to change in the near future, because the technology is advancing quickly.
https://optibike.com/electric-bikes-...e%20does%20not.
Whatever the laws are today, they are going to have to change in the near future, because the technology is advancing quickly.
https://optibike.com/electric-bikes-...e%20does%20not.
The Big Difference:
Electric Bikes let You get Fit
Both a Moped and Electric Scooter provide economical transportation, as does an Electric bike. The biggest difference is that an electric bicycle provides exercise while riding. The electric bike will allow you to get in better health while riding, a moped will not. In addition, mopeds require insurance and a driver’s license in most states, an electric bicycle does not.
06-16-21, 07:41 AM
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When cars showed up 125 years ago, there was the same problem. We used to kill 56,278 people a year on the road. (1972)
"The population motor-vehicle death rate reached its peak in 1937 with 30.8 deaths per 100,000 population/yr. The current rate is 11.9 per 100,000, representing a 61% improvement."
Responsible use is still an issue
***holishness, always a problem, is Modulated, by enforced accountability.
The frail disabled and elderly are getting hurt worse in ebike accidents, on an off the bikes.
Exercise IS there , but not a lot, if you look at the literature, which exists.
The blade guard on my saw annoys me at times, but I like having my fingers.
May the burning torch of ebike batteries light the way to freedom!
"The population motor-vehicle death rate reached its peak in 1937 with 30.8 deaths per 100,000 population/yr. The current rate is 11.9 per 100,000, representing a 61% improvement."
Responsible use is still an issue
***holishness, always a problem, is Modulated, by enforced accountability.
The frail disabled and elderly are getting hurt worse in ebike accidents, on an off the bikes.
Exercise IS there , but not a lot, if you look at the literature, which exists.
The blade guard on my saw annoys me at times, but I like having my fingers.
May the burning torch of ebike batteries light the way to freedom!
06-16-21, 08:26 AM
#31
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You really have to check local ordinances before assuming any legality.
I just happened to have a brochure for a nearby rail trail, and was looking closely for any mention of e-bikes.
"No motorized vehicles allowed, except for motorized wheelchairs, electric, pedal assisted bikes that meet the provisions of Federal Electric Bicycle Law HR727"
Not knowing there was any type of law regarding e-bikes, I looked up HR727, which, in part, defines a class of e-bike.
Electrically driven bicycle has less than 750 watt motor
Functional pedals
Max speed is less than 20mph with 170 lb person on board
So, it looks like electric scooters, or any electric powered moped without pedals, or anything faster than 20 MPH is a no-no.
I wonder if it's possible to soup up an electric wheelchair?
I just happened to have a brochure for a nearby rail trail, and was looking closely for any mention of e-bikes.
"No motorized vehicles allowed, except for motorized wheelchairs, electric, pedal assisted bikes that meet the provisions of Federal Electric Bicycle Law HR727"
Not knowing there was any type of law regarding e-bikes, I looked up HR727, which, in part, defines a class of e-bike.
Electrically driven bicycle has less than 750 watt motor
Functional pedals
Max speed is less than 20mph with 170 lb person on board
So, it looks like electric scooters, or any electric powered moped without pedals, or anything faster than 20 MPH is a no-no.
I wonder if it's possible to soup up an electric wheelchair?
Last edited by Bald Paul; 07-22-21 at 06:48 AM.
06-16-21, 08:47 AM
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06-16-21, 09:42 AM
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The people that whine and complain about e-bikes might as well give up. You have lost. I ride our local bike trails most every other day, and already at least 10% of bikes I meet are e-bikes. Many are being ridden by older people, that are probably new to biking, and are glad to be out on the trails.
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06-16-21, 12:10 PM
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The people that whine and complain about e-bikes might as well give up. You have lost. I ride our local bike trails most every other day, and already at least 10% of bikes I meet are e-bikes. Many are being ridden by older people, that are probably new to biking, and are glad to be out on the trails.
I think the debate is shifted from whether there will be ebikes on the paths (there will) to "what is an ebike?" How fast and how heavy is too fast or heavy?
06-17-21, 07:37 AM
#35
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About 25 states have passed the model law pushed by People for Bikes, which represents the bike industry. Here's the info on each state.
E-bike laws
It's based on the three class system, Class 1 pedal assist to 20 MPH, class 2 throttle to 20 MPH, class 3 pedal assist to 28 MPH.
I'm really trying to find out if any cities are banning e-bikes from greenways or MUPs. I haven't found any yet. A few that had bans like Seattle, have changed their rules.
E-bike laws
It's based on the three class system, Class 1 pedal assist to 20 MPH, class 2 throttle to 20 MPH, class 3 pedal assist to 28 MPH.
I'm really trying to find out if any cities are banning e-bikes from greenways or MUPs. I haven't found any yet. A few that had bans like Seattle, have changed their rules.
06-17-21, 10:14 AM
#36
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The ban is controversial. Banning the "pedal-assist" bikes may be an overreaction to the extreme out-of-control behavior of the other classes of e-bikes, especially those favored by delivery riders, and especially of riders of what are essentially road-going Vespas with electric motors.
But the situation isn't good in NYC.
As I said above:
What's going to happen is a backlash. The delivery riders are, as I said above, out of control. They are dangerous to pedestrians and to other cyclists. One more pedestrian trying to cross the street is going to get knocked over, maybe even killed, by a delivery rider going way too fast, in the dark, without lights, the wrong way, and there's going to be a massive crackdown. Which is never a good thing. There will be bad behavior on the part of the police department, restrictions affecting all riders will be legislated (and enforced, when the NYPD decides to get back to policing the city), and it won't be good for anyone.
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06-17-21, 11:30 AM
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I guess some people need something to whine about. People that try to control what other people do are tiresome.
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06-17-21, 12:40 PM
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Anyway, in Toronto, IIRC (the rules seem to be changing regularly) pedal assist type e-bikes are allowed, but the others are not. How much that is followed, I don't know as I only use the path for commuting which hasn't happened in over a year. Before, I'd likely see one "throttle" type e-bike on the path about ever week or so.
06-17-21, 12:44 PM
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Last edited by livedarklions; 06-17-21 at 12:48 PM.
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06-18-21, 09:47 AM
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Some regulation is absolutely necessary. It just won't work otherwise.
I'm sure all of us bike commuters are glad that the law controls where people can drive cars, for example. Otherwise drivers would be taking shortcuts by using the greenways.
And the city's bike paths work because they're restricted to bicycles. At this point in time, they're being used by riders of actual motorcycles. And those riders aren't even observing the basic rules of going in the same direction as everyone else, or using lights at night.
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06-18-21, 10:35 AM
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Well, sure. But here I am in a densely populated city of nine million people, built for the most part on islands (meaning that the only direction for expansion is up), into which (COVID aside) several more million people come every day to work.
Some regulation is absolutely necessary. It just won't work otherwise.
I'm sure all of us bike commuters are glad that the law controls where people can drive cars, for example. Otherwise drivers would be taking shortcuts by using the greenways.
And the city's bike paths work because they're restricted to bicycles. At this point in time, they're being used by riders of actual motorcycles. And those riders aren't even observing the basic rules of going in the same direction as everyone else, or using lights at night.
Some regulation is absolutely necessary. It just won't work otherwise.
I'm sure all of us bike commuters are glad that the law controls where people can drive cars, for example. Otherwise drivers would be taking shortcuts by using the greenways.
And the city's bike paths work because they're restricted to bicycles. At this point in time, they're being used by riders of actual motorcycles. And those riders aren't even observing the basic rules of going in the same direction as everyone else, or using lights at night.
What's really hilarious is that the guy you're responding to posts all kinds of stuff about "racer boys" riding too fast on the paths. He loves telling people what to do.
And yes, yours is a good reminder that all "greenways" are not equal. Some of them are in incredibly dense population areas.
06-21-21, 10:19 AM
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Most states define electric bikes as being powered for less than 20 mph and less than 750 watts. Louisiana defines them completely differently as "motorized bicycles" limited to 25 mph, and also requires that you have a drivers license if it exceeds 5 hp. . They're allowed on bike paths unless otherwise forbidden.
But yeah, the line can get kind of blurry.
But yeah, the line can get kind of blurry.
The reality is that they're badly written in even what they actually intend to allow.
What you are describing is not comparable to a "bicycle" unless powered by a very small, athletic, dedicated, and consequently expert segment of the population.
It makes complete sense for there to be a low speed electric moped legal category - but as a category of licensed, inspected, and insured road-bound motor vehicle, not something that should ever be on shared use paths.
In contrast something motor assisted that wants to pass itself off as a "bicycle" should be limited to average person on a bike speeds and safety skills - which for more than a few hundred yards at a time are realistically around 12-14 mph, more often less.
Last edited by UniChris; 06-21-21 at 11:01 AM.
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06-21-21, 10:32 AM
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Just because motorized things moving at un bike like speeds for their riders and terrain are physically possible and profitable to sell doesn't make them sane public policy.
When regs for so-called e-bikes actually model typical person on a bike performance, perhaps a meaningful conversation can be had.
But even "class 1" allows moped performance, not representative of what it's typical rider could ever in their life have personally sustained for more than a brief sprint.
Last edited by UniChris; 06-21-21 at 10:36 AM.
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06-21-21, 10:40 AM
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What's going to happen is a backlash. The delivery riders are, as I said above, out of control. They are dangerous to pedestrians and to other cyclists. One more pedestrian trying to cross the street is going to get knocked over, maybe even killed, by a delivery rider going way too fast, in the dark, without lights, the wrong way, and there's going to be a massive crackdown. Which is never a good thing. There will be bad behavior on the part of the police department, restrictions affecting all riders will be legislated (and enforced, when the NYPD decides to get back to policing the city), and it won't be good for anyone.
You already can't legally ride pedal bike on key portions of the Hudson greenway.
07-10-21, 09:24 PM
#45
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It ain't geris, heart patients and the legless vets , causing the problem.
It's jerk narcissists with little self control and mommy's credit card, being careless callous bullies on streets and trails.
ebikes are just a tool, but need enforceable accountability..
It's a team sport, some people can't play on the varsity team and need to be sent home until they learn to play with others,
for safety sake. For the good of the team.
It's jerk narcissists with little self control and mommy's credit card, being careless callous bullies on streets and trails.
ebikes are just a tool, but need enforceable accountability..
It's a team sport, some people can't play on the varsity team and need to be sent home until they learn to play with others,
for safety sake. For the good of the team.
Last edited by bikebikebike; 09-30-21 at 01:43 PM.
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07-13-21, 07:49 AM
#46
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It ain't geris, heart patients and the legless vets , causing the problem.
It's jerk narcissists with little self control and mommy's credit card, being careless callous bullies on streets and trails.
ebikes are a tool, but need enforceable accountability..
It's a team sport, some people cant play on the varsity, team and need to be sent home
until they learn to play with others, for safety sake.
It's jerk narcissists with little self control and mommy's credit card, being careless callous bullies on streets and trails.
ebikes are a tool, but need enforceable accountability..
It's a team sport, some people cant play on the varsity, team and need to be sent home
until they learn to play with others, for safety sake.
TBH, I haven't had any major issues with ebike riders on MUPS other than seeing some very heavy ones going 20 MPH on the busiest section of the Minuteman. That was really only a concern with what would happen if that became common if commercial interests start using that as a delivery method because I think that would crowd out other uses.
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07-22-21, 02:05 AM
#48
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….I know that in Portland a pedestrian advocacy group was pushing for a speed limit of 12MPPH on a MUPS path. So that is probably the kind of direction it would take. Now maybe 12MPH is fine for some folks, but it would certainly seem really slow to me. Don't think there will be enforcement? I lived in Portland in the 2000's when police routinely targeted cyclists for infractions (mostly stop sign running) but with enough public outcry it can certainly happen, and nothing gets people riled up more than dead kids and old people, who are the most likely to get hit on a greenway.
Now why should regular pedal pushers care what happens with ebikes? Because the enforcement is libel to spill over to us. Throwing all bicycles of MUPS is probably easier than actually who is riding an ebike and reactive legislation and policing are prone to over kill.
What is the alternative? Well tossing all ebikes off greenways is possible but still seems a bit over the top. Reasonable speed limits is probably a good proactive step, and so is enforcement of existing ebike laws. In Oregon they require power has to be limited to under 20MPH and only when pedaling. Starting to enforce that would probably help too, because if we wait until something bad happens we are all likely to be caught in the blowback.
Now why should regular pedal pushers care what happens with ebikes? Because the enforcement is libel to spill over to us. Throwing all bicycles of MUPS is probably easier than actually who is riding an ebike and reactive legislation and policing are prone to over kill.
What is the alternative? Well tossing all ebikes off greenways is possible but still seems a bit over the top. Reasonable speed limits is probably a good proactive step, and so is enforcement of existing ebike laws. In Oregon they require power has to be limited to under 20MPH and only when pedaling. Starting to enforce that would probably help too, because if we wait until something bad happens we are all likely to be caught in the blowback.
So yes this happens.
The question is how do you convince the 5%? that put others at risk of harm to not do so? This is the nut to crack.
07-22-21, 07:43 AM
#49
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My opinion has morphed over time from "hell no" to simply that each MUP user should follow the same prescribed rules set.
Meaning, stay right, pay attention, don't speed, etc......... Nothing to say that a runner with headphones occupying the dead middle of a trail also isn't a hazard. Or a fully human powered triathlon bike whizzing along at an inappropriate speed.
So, I'm all good with most of it if folks follow rules.
Issue is, folks don't follow rules. Then what you end up with is rules banning e-bikes, banning bikes and only walkers/on foot traffic, etc........
Around here starting to see a lot of the $1000 "mutant e-bike dirtbike" contraptions you see advertised on Facebook that are more like electric motorcycles. Then folks use it as a legal workaround for not using a gas powered device on a greenway and not having to legally register the motorized device for road use.
Meaning, stay right, pay attention, don't speed, etc......... Nothing to say that a runner with headphones occupying the dead middle of a trail also isn't a hazard. Or a fully human powered triathlon bike whizzing along at an inappropriate speed.
So, I'm all good with most of it if folks follow rules.
Issue is, folks don't follow rules. Then what you end up with is rules banning e-bikes, banning bikes and only walkers/on foot traffic, etc........
Around here starting to see a lot of the $1000 "mutant e-bike dirtbike" contraptions you see advertised on Facebook that are more like electric motorcycles. Then folks use it as a legal workaround for not using a gas powered device on a greenway and not having to legally register the motorized device for road use.
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07-22-21, 10:20 AM
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