Has anyone used glue to joint steel lugged frames?
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That would be ALAN- the tubing and the lugs are threaded and the tubing screws into the lugs. TVT & Look just have plain glue joints if I understand correctly.
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A number of other parts have to go in such as brake bridges, and cable stops. Some things like cable guides can be clamp on, perhaps from 1950's and 1960's vintage bikes.
You'll likely end up with a issue that parts are designed to be brazed, silver soldered, or welded, but may not have enough surface area for other adhesives.
The big problem with the frame itself is that the alignment has to be spot on. I've never done brazing, but I've done some welding, and the act of welding throws enough heat into the material that everything is distorted to heck. Also, the weld itself will shrink back as it cools, ruining whatever alignment you thought you had.
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because it does not work and stay bonded or people would be using it. you know people have tried
glue bonds need a certain about of surface area, and the amount with a lug is pretty small...extending the lug would impact how a frame works in terms of stiffness
beyond that lugs and tubes are not the precise super accurate fit a glue bond needs to be strong, while the brass or silver used in brazing can fill the slightly less than super perfect fit
you would get a better technical set of replies if this were in frame builder section
glue bonds need a certain about of surface area, and the amount with a lug is pretty small...extending the lug would impact how a frame works in terms of stiffness
beyond that lugs and tubes are not the precise super accurate fit a glue bond needs to be strong, while the brass or silver used in brazing can fill the slightly less than super perfect fit
you would get a better technical set of replies if this were in frame builder section
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I definitely see where you are coming from. And to a certain degree, industry has followed, just not the bike industry.
Seems like most new plumbing is PVC. Glue it up, no more heating and soldering.
Even a lot of copper is now crimped with a new type of joint.
If you want to get into frame building without the heat, seems like bamboo is the way to go. Especially from a diy in the garage type of situation.
Seems like most new plumbing is PVC. Glue it up, no more heating and soldering.
Even a lot of copper is now crimped with a new type of joint.
If you want to get into frame building without the heat, seems like bamboo is the way to go. Especially from a diy in the garage type of situation.
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Soldering copper usually isn't much of a problem, and the tools can be cheap.
Galvanized can be a bit more of a pain to work with, and be careful with the copper to galvanized joint.
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I bet the reason isn’t that its particularly difficult, just more difficult that brazing and welding. The reason those other frames are glued is because brazing and welding those materials isn’t trivial.
i want to push back on your assumption that a layperson would be more equiped to glue a frame together than weld it. The epoxy might need mechanical mixing, probably needs degassing or centrifuging etc. it would be an operation, not arts and crafts with elmers glue.
Someone selling a DIY kit has to be sure they won’t end up killing someone too right. I glued together an aluminum frame that cracked on me and it didn’t work at all lol, but that’s not really related.
i want to push back on your assumption that a layperson would be more equiped to glue a frame together than weld it. The epoxy might need mechanical mixing, probably needs degassing or centrifuging etc. it would be an operation, not arts and crafts with elmers glue.
Someone selling a DIY kit has to be sure they won’t end up killing someone too right. I glued together an aluminum frame that cracked on me and it didn’t work at all lol, but that’s not really related.
Last edited by LarrySellerz; 05-25-23 at 03:10 PM.
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The OP was probably asking whether glue could be used in place of brazing material to build a steel frame by the use of conventional steel lugs and frame tubes, i.e., lugs and tubes that were designed to be brazed together. Short answer is no---not using off-the-shelf tubes and lugs. Too little surface area for a strong bond, among other roadblocks.
But, as noted earlier in the thread, Raleigh used their Technium process to build at least a few frames with Reynolds 753 tubes inserted over and glued to fairly long internal steel "lugs." So it can be done.
Bit of Technium trivia, told to me by our shop's Raleigh sales rep: Raleigh USA built their factory in Kent, Washington, near the Boeing factory, expressly to make it easy to recruit Boeing aerospace engineers, who were, of course, fully up to date on design considerations for glued-together, highly stressed structures.
The Raleigh dealership where I worked sold a lot of Technium bikes. I don't remember ever seeing a Technium bike with a failure of a glued joint, though it's possible, maybe through inadvertent contamination during the joining process.
By the way, I'd love to know the real story of why Huffy eventually decided to pull out of the business of selling Raleigh USA bikes to bike shops. Could be that the volatility of that market and the head start of their main competitors in that market turned out to make that market segment be too much trouble to bother with, Selling exactly the same lowest-of-low-end Huffy bikes to department stores, year after year after year, must have seemed a much more reliable business---at least, until they began to be undercut by even cheaper bikes from Taiwan and mainland China.
But, as noted earlier in the thread, Raleigh used their Technium process to build at least a few frames with Reynolds 753 tubes inserted over and glued to fairly long internal steel "lugs." So it can be done.
Bit of Technium trivia, told to me by our shop's Raleigh sales rep: Raleigh USA built their factory in Kent, Washington, near the Boeing factory, expressly to make it easy to recruit Boeing aerospace engineers, who were, of course, fully up to date on design considerations for glued-together, highly stressed structures.
The Raleigh dealership where I worked sold a lot of Technium bikes. I don't remember ever seeing a Technium bike with a failure of a glued joint, though it's possible, maybe through inadvertent contamination during the joining process.
By the way, I'd love to know the real story of why Huffy eventually decided to pull out of the business of selling Raleigh USA bikes to bike shops. Could be that the volatility of that market and the head start of their main competitors in that market turned out to make that market segment be too much trouble to bother with, Selling exactly the same lowest-of-low-end Huffy bikes to department stores, year after year after year, must have seemed a much more reliable business---at least, until they began to be undercut by even cheaper bikes from Taiwan and mainland China.
Last edited by Trakhak; 05-26-23 at 04:51 AM.
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The ALAN is the most famous "screwed and glued" frame... i have one... it's fine... some came loose early on in life... the rumor is "if it made it this far, it will be fine!" ... no clunky lugs on mine... yet.
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of course some one has tried it... human nature
the fact that you don't see this type of building option means
1) is it so good that the company has been in stealth mode for 20 or 30 years to absolutely perfect it
2) the person who tried it received a Darwin Award after a highspeed downhill first ride test
3) It sort of works but ROI and benefit is not there compared to brazing
4) it works so poorly that there is no reason to spend time and money on it
one thing that could change this in the future might be printed lugs that can be made for greater surface area and precise fit
the fact that you don't see this type of building option means
1) is it so good that the company has been in stealth mode for 20 or 30 years to absolutely perfect it
2) the person who tried it received a Darwin Award after a highspeed downhill first ride test
3) It sort of works but ROI and benefit is not there compared to brazing
4) it works so poorly that there is no reason to spend time and money on it
one thing that could change this in the future might be printed lugs that can be made for greater surface area and precise fit
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A brazed joint can be stronger than a glued joint, and brazing technology is known, proven, reliable, and inexpensive. What would be the advantage of a glued steel frame? IIRC, some of the Raleigh USA "Technium" frames used glued Reynolds 753 tubes to get around Reynolds' 753 brazing certification requirement.
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All the equipment you need is some flux, some appropriate brazing rod, and a common propane torch. If you want to try it, find some scrap parts and go look for instructional videos on youtube. It isn't hard.
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As far as using adhesive?
Hey Man... It's just an engineering problem. And most likely solved with off the shelf adhesives too...
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The 3D printing community has 'discovered' that if you take a design in steel or aluminum or even zinc and reproduce it directly in printed plastic, it often fails, but, and it's a big but, if you consider the function of the part and redesign considering the material properties of 3D printed plastic, it can work just fine. As several others have pointed out upthread, same thing applies in this inquiry: redesign the lug/tube interface for adhesive bonding.
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Or carbon has made this redundant. Development of steel technology within cycling is pretty well at a dead end and has been replaced by Carbon which by all indications still has a way to go. Take a Specialized Aethos a mass production bicycle frame under 600 grams and reliable as any other.
I’d love to see a better system in place for recycling it and fiberglass. Between the auto industry, aviation, wind power, and bikes, it sure would be nice to figure out something to do with those broken parts. That’s my only complaint with carbon fiber.
Then there’s this older article
https://bikerumor.com/thyssenkrupp-s...tweight-steel/
Its been 4 years. I haven’t heard anything else. Meanwhile carbon is getting more cost effective. Still holding my breath for a monocoque stamped steel aero road frame. Material properties being what they are, it’s already lost to carbon.
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Once you start gluing, I would think moving on to titanium or carbon tubes would be a natural next step. And you can do that. But the problem is nobody is going to sell you the lugs if you aren't a framebuilder. 3d printed lugs are still pretty expensive.
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A brazed joint can be stronger than a glued joint, and brazing technology is known, proven, reliable, and inexpensive. What would be the advantage of a glued steel frame? IIRC, some of the Raleigh USA "Technium" frames used glued Reynolds 753 tubes to get around Reynolds' 753 brazing certification requirement.
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...The 3D printing community has 'discovered' that if you take a design in steel or aluminum or even zinc and reproduce it directly in printed plastic, it often fails, but, and it's a big but, if you consider the function of the part and redesign considering the material properties of 3D printed plastic, it can work just fine.
So why is it an engineering problem and not a chemist or functional materials problem?
Cause the engineer never forgets... Its the ride... Its all about the ride... Ha
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Sure, and I forgot about that, but my torch (Ace Hardware brand, IIRC) burns either one, and I have it on a MAPP cylinder now. Ultimately, both fuels do the job equally well; the MAPP will just save you a little time.