camjr

I restored my father's 1976 Motobecane Grand Touring nearly 2 years ago. It had not moved from it's ceiling hooks in his garage since 1982. Every bit was able to be serviced and the consumables like bar tape, lever covers, tires/tubes, etc. replaced. I was able to salvage the original suede saddle using mink oil to do it since the suede's nap was long gone. The only thing I needed assistance on was the creaky, clicking bottom bracket. A local shop that sold these in the 70's did that for me, replacing the spindle, cups, and bearing for less than $20 in parts they had on hand in old bins. It rides beautifully. The Suntour V-GT Luxe derailleurs, shifters, and DiaCompe Grand Compe brakes work great. Good luck-This one's a keeper.

TenGrainBread 

@francophile fyi the "milled" cotters you posted actually look like they've been ground, not milled. This is generally the preferred machining method for hardened steel if the geometry is amenable to it.

francophile 

Milled/ground/filed, not sure the correct word. I have a bit of an issue with word-recall, you'll see me using the wrong words periodically, I just don't realize I'm doing it. Despite English being my birth language, I manage to butcher it pretty well. All dates back to an injury when I was younger.

I usually try to use a slash to separate words/terms if I'm consciously aware I can't quite nail in on the right word, so if you ever see that, that's why it's there. Just trying to compensate for ineptitude.

TenGrainBread 

Eh, close enough!

desconhecido 

I have no experience with IRD bottom brackets, but some people say they're pretty good. IRD claims to offer retro-fit cups for one or more model of BB threaded in Swiss, French, and Italian. About a year ago I acquired a Motobecane Grand Record with TA BB in Swiss and just for information sake tried to find whether the Swiss cups were actually available -- couldn't find them online though the French thread cups seem to actually exist. SJS lists the Swiss cups as available in March 2020.

So, if someone is intent on installing a modern (if square taper is still modern) sealed bearing BB in a French threaded frame, the IRD option might worth considering.

3alarmer 

...this is pretty much how it is in the donated bicycle repair and resale world. If you're putting in a lot of hours already, and you have a steady stream of unwanted bicycles coming in the door, you triage to keep your head above water. I used to advise people to avoid the French bikes at our co-op on a regular basis, too, unless they were mechanically sophisticated enough to do a lot of their own repairs. At this point in time it's often difficult to find someone in the bike shop world who will work on them.

And a lot of local shops here are reluctant to do cottered cranks because of the extra time involved. The whole parts availability problems (sourced new) doesn't help.

After a while in a busy co-op environment, you just kind of shrug your shoulders and say, "You can't save them all." There are never enough volunteers, and if you aren't careful, the stream of donated bikes coming in the door will overwhelm the space you can afford for storage. It sounds like you have some enthusiasm, so that will go a long way in this endeavor.

rustystrings61 

I'm firmly in the camp that calls for servicing the existing parts and putting them back on the road. I came up during the bike boom and had all the proper snobbery that reflected the magazines I read - cottered cranks bad, must have chrome fork tips, must have high-flange hubs etc., etc. When I returned to cycling, there was the constant chant of, "First, scrap those 27-in wheels for some 700Cs." Pretty much conventional wisdom ...

Then I did a couple of the Clunker Challenge 100s and realized just how well old French cheapies ride, especially when serviced and fitted with good tires, a good freewheel, and decent derailleurs. Switch out the rims and you might be shocked at how well it rides. There's a reason for the expression "The French have a way with gaspipe." For that matter, decent alloy 27-in rims and decent 27 x 1 1/4-in tires at the right pressure is an amazingly smooth and versatile ride.

camjr

Very well said!

Salamandrine 

Out of curiosity, this old school mechanic wonders what is the actual hang up on the Frenchie bikes? Is it the actual French threads, or is it in fact cottered cranks? Sounds like the latter from the discussion so far. Cottered cranks are hardly exclusive to French bikes. What would normally be done to a donated bike that can't be easily done to a French bike? Do the BB's typically get 'overhauled' by installing a UN55 or something? Is it the pedals? The headset?


If you know the tricks, cotterless aren't particularly more time consuming than cotterless. But I guess that's the rub, no one knows the tricks anymore. Assuming you have a cotter press, a decent mechanic could pull both crankarms, overhaul the BB, and have it all back together in 5 minutes. If the pins get mangled and have to be replaced, it might take 15. The new pins often needed some custom filing. Granted this can be a hassle.

francophile 

Yes, yes, yes and maybe. Add in the mystery of "non-standard threads" and "some hunt-and-peck required on replacements" and you have a challenge a lot of people aren't up for when they know they can just go buy a British or American bike and almost everything new and old fits. Mostly though, I think it's "fear of the unknown", people don't like a good mystery and/or don't like or want to learn anything new.

Personally I re-use the existing hardware. I have enough replacements from scrapped bikes I can manage my own replacements. In some cases, I may choose to use stock cups and convert to cotterless if it's warranted, like the hardware was lesser than the frame, or I have the spares around and "it works".

I've never managed to find any of the sealed Shimano cartridges that were both (a) French-thread, since I've never seen a Swiss Shimano cartridge and (b) providing a proper chainline for cotterless crank. If there's such a model that achieves both, I'd love to know what it is, I'll start hunting for a few

Salamandrine 

"Fear of the unknown" - Yeah, that makes the most sense.

Seems like at least partially a gestalt thing. Reusing the existing hardware was once the norm. There was no hunt for replacements. In fact it would have seemed downright silly to throw out a BB or hub or whatever because it needed to be cleaned and greased. That's not the case anymore. Cheap pedals might have gotten replaced if necessary, that was about it. BITD $5/pr Atom (etc) pedals were widely available in BSC, FR and 1/2".

I don't think Shimano ever made cartridge bottom brackets in French threads. I guess my point is, are mechanics today so accustomed to swapping in a new cartridge unit, that cleaning and regreasing the existing bearings seems strange and unfamiliar? I'm pretty sure that 99.9% of old french bottom brackets aren't actually going wear out. Sure some will be rusted from outside storage or something.

I guess if the pedals are trashed or bent that could be a problem. Most old pedals weren't designed to be overauled. $5/pr atom pedals etc were once widely available in BSC, FR and 1/2".

There are also the lost arts of straightening steel crank arms, and for that matter removing dents from steel rims. Used to do that stuff all the time in the shop. I bet not many still know how.

3alarmer 

...the French threading and metric frame tubing diameters limit your access to replacement parts off other bikes. Unless you're using used replacement stuff for repairs to existing bikes that get donated, it's very hard to sell them at a price that's palatable to customers in a co-op environment. Cotters do require some technique, and the technique is not widely shared or understood. If you damage the cotters, supplying decent quality new ones is getting more and more difficult.

And I have some technique, but I still can't service the average cottered BB (where the pins have been in place for 40 years) in 15 minutes. I just can't, and I know because I still do it occasionally. Mostly the old French headsets I've seen are pretty good quality, so they tend to survive on the donated bikes if nobody ****s them up.

It's not difficult to retap the cranks for standard pedal threading, but the steel cottered ones are more time consuming to do, and you need a better, longer tapered tap like the Hozan ones to do it reliably.



Again, I think it's mostly a question of the lower hanging fruit getting priority, because there are a tonne off old bikes that get donated to places like co-ops. At least, that's how it is here where I live. and there are practical limits to volunteers with decent mechanical skills and experience. A lot of the staff are volunteering to learn more, not to teach.

Velo Mule

I wish I lived closer to you, Senior Rider 00. I am keeping an eye out for a French bike with a cottered crank. The older the better. And the less expensive the better. But, you are on the other side of the country from me.

Having worked in a bike shop in the early eighty's, we had a VAR cotter pin removal tool. This tool works great. So, I lost any apprehension of working with cottered cranks. We got lots of them in. Even without this tool, I know I can get them out one way or another. I like the idea of using some heat on the crank. We didn't have to do that back then, but the bikes were much newer then too.

I think that one benefit of the VAR tool is that, in addition to leverage, that there is no spinning element in contact with the cotter pin. It just pushes straight. This can be the advantage of using a drill press vise and a socket. I haven't worked on cottered cranks since my days in the bike shop. Oh, I take that back, I took an old Royce Union apart, but the cranks were so crudely made that they got recycled.

The English 3-speed guys deal with these cranks and keep them, so they are able to be worked on with just a little practice.

63rickert

If any seriously want the elusive Swiss cups they are here and will set you back all of 11.95 plus shipping.

https://www.ebay.fr/itm/Boitier-peda...AAAOSw0EJc4Hm-

Omigosh that comes with a 123 spindle. Not perfect. What if you want a 117.32 spindle? Back to square one. And that listing does not provide full mechanical drawings or a link to blueprint of the spindle taper. And it's not cartridge. Oh noes, can't have that, only cartridges allowed on my bikes.

Guess what. Vintage bikes do not have cartridge BBs. If you want a cartridge BB make it simple on yourself and buy a new bike.

crank_addict

Of course, there's no rules of what one may do with any vintage bike. Go ahead and sin! Get your new fangled bottom bracket, if that's what it takes to best serve you.

But, do toss those French parts to us vultures.

Realize back when, pro teams and riders selected components to best serve their needs, regardless country of origin. French parts were often on Italian frames, just like Japan's fine Suntour on pro Italian frames in the 1980s. Seriously. Colnago's with Suntour, contrary, Gitane and Peugeot with Campy, etc..

The hangup appears in the States and among collectors, date code matchy-match this and that groupsets. Actually becomes boring to me.

Here's a crappy Italian steed that happens to be one of my faves, and ironically always gets compliments among non-cyclist and strangers. Though most importantly, I really enjoy riding it.

Anyways, some French highlights are the very vinti Stronglight Competition 'cottered' steel crank, single MAFAC dual pull brake lever pulling (non- French) Universal centerpulls and a Simplex seatpin.




P.s. No argument with French rims.

francophile 

NDS races on that spindle look pitted all to hell. but at 123, suitable for going triple if that's your flavor.

63rickert

When someone advertises Swiss BBs on ebay they are not looking to get rich. Not even securing a decent retirement. And it is not a quick or efficient way to clear out the basement. Besides the Swiss BB w/cotterless spindle there are two more Swiss BB sets currently listed with cottered spindles. The guys posting these parts are saying "We've got you covered. May we help you with anything?"

OP is discussing salvage that is 40 and 50 years old. My first question before undertaking such a project would be what am I doing with it when I'm done. OP says he can sell them. Just amazing. Simplest, easiest, best way to refurb these bikes is keep everything that can be kept. Replace like for like. Ten and twenty years ago there were Peugeot parts bikes in the alley. Everything was easy to find. That is no longer the case. But just as the supply of old Schwinn parts is still pretty darn good in Chicago the supply of French parts in France is ample. One of the great features of French was everyone used the same parts. Manufrance and Alex Singer used same parts. Why not? Mafac brakes were great. Stronglight cranks were great. So the total inventory needed to work on anything French is finite.

I don't know I've ever seen a Swiss bracket. I grew up in immediate vicinity of Othon and of Al Stiller. There were a couple of Tigra city bikes that probably had Swiss but I never messed with them. Finding a Swiss thread in US at all seems doubtful. But if you need one you need one and there is a place to get it. And it costs less than buying V-O. And is easier. And looks better. And likely works better.

One more for OP. When these bikes were new assembly was usually pretty bad. You may see a lovely bike that sat in dry, dark, climate controlled storage for 45 years but it is not all that likely to be a working bike. Assembly errors are a huge reason for a bike to be parked unused. Shop mechanics did not like French 50 years ago either. I remember plenty who would just not work on Mafac brakes. Ben Lawee's big sales pitch on his Motobecanes was they had Weinmann. That was Lawee, not Moto that decided that. Mafac is a powerful brake. They stop very very well. They do require attention. They did not leave factory tuned. Lots of stuff was not tuned. The industry was predicated on small bike shops that spent time prepping bikes for customers they knew, who lived down the block. Watch Jacques Tati in Jour de Fête. That is the world these bikes came from. When a bike boom shop tried to sell 50 Gitanes on a nice sunny weekend the bikes were not right.

And be sure to tell the volunteers not on program to save everything. Small bits like Mafac ferrules are worth their weight in gold.

Senior Ryder 00 

Hello again,


After much discussion and thanks to all of the great comments, the issue of what to do with a bunch of good French bikes has been resolved. The co-op's mission is to reuse as many bikes and parts as possible. Management also realizes that the market for vintage French bikes in NW Oregon is good.


So, my focus during the slow winter season is to rebuild/refurbish as many of these as possible. My first assignment is a very nice, all Campagnolo, Motobecane Team Champion. The only thing missing is the pedals. I haven't had a chance to research the serial number or any date code, but will do this during my shift next week. I will also try to post some pix. Since my personal stable is full to over flowing, this bike will be a display model for the co-op to show off our restoration capabilities. Additional bikes will go on the sales floor. Hopefully, at some point, these will generate some $ to support our community service programs.


Normally, during the winter, I concentrate on refurbing clean, entry level, adult bikes to build inventory for the spring and summer rush.


Thanks again.


Cheers,


Van

Insidious C. 

Your Coop sounds like a good place to look for French bike parts. Last weekend I asked about a French headset at the Coop nearest my home. A brief staff conference ensued, after which I was informed that "anything metric would work."

Iowegian

I see your point but that remark is accurate, even if it's not very useful. French headset threading was 35x1mm, IIRC, and washers with tabs or a flat spot on them interchange well enough, if the inside diameter is correct. I don't know of any other headset standards that are purely 'metric' although headsets found on some old Austrian bikes might be that way too.

But yeah, I agree that most bike co-ops don't work on enough French bikes to care or learn about all the specs and what works with what, etc. I know our co-op goes through so many bikes each day with so many un-experienced volunteers that this kind of subtlety is usually lost on them. I once found (and returned) a PX-10 from the recycle bin while on one of my scavenging runs. To whoever put it in there, it was just an old Peugeot that needed work and wasn't worth the time.

rmfrance

I've lived and worked in France for many years, and have worked on lots of bikes I've chanced upon here and there. What most interest me are mid-range and upwards lightweight roadbikes from builders like Gitane, Mercier, Peugeot and Motobécane, all of whom could turn out great value bikes which ride well and have pretty good components. It's great to see others saving these bikes from distruction.

Lower-end bikes usually came with cottered steel cranksets, which are tough but very heavy, and my own preference is for cotterless sets - better ranges from Stronglight are to my eyes right up there with Campagnolo as design classics. Earlier cranks do have 23.35mm threads, though, and the wrong puller will strip them, so BB maintenance tend to get neglected, just as it does for cottered sets. Almost all the bikes I strip to service therefore turn out to have dried, hardened grease or are almost dry - same goes for hubs, in fact.

Here's how I remove cotter pins without special tools:

• Remove the retaining nut carefully, ideally with some WD40 or similar - squirt some around oth ends of the pin, too.
• Place a well-oversize hex nut around the non-threaded end of the cotter pin.
• Now put a big G-clamp ('cramp', if you're British..) with the fixed end over the oversized nut and screw the adjustable end onto the threaded end of the pin, to put it under tension.
• Give the free/adjustment end of the clamp a light tap with a hammer. If the pin doesn't free straight away tighten the clamp more firmly and give another hammer tap or two.

This method has so far always worked for me, and shouldn't damage the pins. As you unscrew the removable BB cup you'll usually find individual rather than caged ball bearings, so be prepared for them and have something under the BB to catch them. Count how many there are. If you arm yourself with a small pen-type magnet you can easily hook them out, even if there is grease.
You all know how to clean and regrease bearings, so go to it (lay the frame in its side and it will be easier to get the balls seated in the new grease for reassembly).
Don't rush the tightening/adjustment stage - the same goes for hubs, obviously - and if you get it right you'll forget all about fitting sealed bearings...

Keep 'em going (and ridden), folks!