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No more helmet enforcement?

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No more helmet enforcement?

Old 06-21-22, 10:33 AM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by amitzinman View Post
I was wondering, has anyone ever done a scientific study of bike helmets? Something peer reviewed with crash test dummies?
Are you volunteering to be a dummy?
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Old 06-21-22, 10:56 AM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by LarrySellerz View Post
They are helmet police because they told me not to ride with them unless I wore a helmet. Lots of riders don't wear helmets, pros used to not wear helmets, its a personal decision and people should respect it. I'm sick of fighting the losing battle though so now I ride with one on my bars to put on if I anticipate getting caught up in a group ride situation or a technical descent
hear hear!
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Old 06-21-22, 11:06 AM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by amitzinman View Post
I was wondering, has anyone ever done a scientific study of bike helmets? Something peer reviewed with crash test dummies?
All bike helmet models from reputable manufacturers are subjected to extensive testing by independent agencies. The agencies bestow certification on the helmet models that meet their standards. Look inside your helmet: you'll see at least one certification sticker.
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Old 06-21-22, 11:13 AM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by LarrySellerz View Post
They are helmet police because they told me not to ride with them unless I wore a helmet. Lots of riders don't wear helmets, pros used to not wear helmets, its a personal decision and people should respect it. I'm sick of fighting the losing battle though so now I ride with one on my bars to put on if I anticipate getting caught up in a group ride situation or a technical descent
A friend of mine was waiting for his cat 3 bike race to start when a cat 1 friend of his rolled up and asked if he could borrow his helmet.

My friend said, "Where's yours?"

The reply: "I rode 25 miles here. Where was I supposed to put it?"

(I knew that cat 1 rider, too. Not a mental giant.)
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Old 06-21-22, 01:30 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by Trakhak View Post
All bike helmet models from reputable manufacturers are subjected to extensive testing by independent agencies. The agencies bestow certification on the helmet models that meet their standards. Look inside your helmet: you'll see at least one certification sticker.
Testing exists, yes, how extensive is a matter of opinion.

Experts on the subject can correct me if necessary, but I believe that the manufacturers only need to "certify" that their helmets meet the agencies' standards before being permitted to apply the sticker to the first production. I do not know whether they are required to submit any production samples to an independent testing agency first or later or ever during production.
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Old 06-21-22, 03:04 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
I do not know whether they are required to submit any production samples to an independent testing agency first or later or ever during production.
Snell Foundation conducts ongoing random sample tests on production helmets that they buy at retail. If any fail, they conduct a follow up test. If any of those fail, the manufacturer loses certification.

-mr. bill
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Old 06-21-22, 04:22 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
Snell Foundation conducts ongoing random sample tests on production helmets that they buy at retail. If any fail, they conduct a follow up test. If any of those fail, the manufacturer loses certification.

-mr. bill
No helmet sold in the U.S (or anywhere else AFAIK) requires a certification from the Snell Foundation.
The CPSC certification label is the required certification sticker required for any helmet to be legally sold in the U.S. Information about the testing requirement is at: https://www.cpsc.gov/Business--Manuf...icycle-Helmets
I didn't see any requirement for initial or follow up testing to ever be conducted on helmet samples by an independent agency prior to applying CPSC stickers on every helmet of a production run of the helmet model.
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Old 06-21-22, 06:52 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
No helmet sold in the U.S (or anywhere else AFAIK) requires a certification from the Snell Foundation.
Bicycle helmets sold in the US (and elsewhere as well) MAY carry Snell certification. Up until 2018 most Specialized helmets were Snell certified.

You may continue on your snipe hunt alone.

-mr. bill

Last edited by mr_bill; 06-22-22 at 04:55 AM. Reason: corrected date. enjoy your snipe hunt. if you don’t invite larry maybe he’lll join you.
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Old 06-21-22, 08:48 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
Bicycle helmets sold in the US (and elsewhere as well) MAY carry Snell certification. Up until the great recession most Specialized helmets were Snell certified.

You may continue on your snipe hunt alone.

-mr. bill
And now Specialized is not displaying a Snell certification sticker? So what does that mean? The helmet is not as safe as before or Specialized decided not pay Snell Foundation a fee for the negligible/questionable benefit of affixing their unnecessary sticker to their helmets, or what? How many helmet customers give a darn about Snell or their certifications?
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Old 06-22-22, 06:20 AM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
And now Specialized is not displaying a Snell certification sticker? So what does that mean? The helmet is not as safe as before or Specialized decided not pay Snell Foundation a fee for the negligible/questionable benefit of affixing their unnecessary sticker to their helmets, or what? How many helmet customers give a darn about Snell or their certifications?
only time I could see that decal/sticker being purposeful is when it's a requirement for participating in an event. What event that might be, that I am not certain of & really doesn't effect me. So the cert means nothing to a person like myself.
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Old 06-22-22, 07:25 AM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
And now Specialized is not displaying a Snell certification sticker? So what does that mean? The helmet is not as safe as before or Specialized decided not pay Snell Foundation a fee for the negligible/questionable benefit of affixing their unnecessary sticker to their helmets, or what? How many helmet customers give a darn about Snell or their certifications?

I believe it means that they are now going with MIPS certification, which also requires testing.

Feel free to buy a helmet that lacks certification for any independent testing, but I'm pretty sure almost all the major manufacturers are going with one sort of certification or another, or they are publicizing their VA Tech results.

People who buy helmets tend to want to be reassured that they are actually tested safety equipment. Go figure.
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Old 06-22-22, 07:28 AM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by Troul View Post
only time I could see that decal/sticker being purposeful is when it's a requirement for participating in an event. What event that might be, that I am not certain of & really doesn't effect me. So the cert means nothing to a person like myself.
Don't assume that people all feel the same way about this. Manufacturers know these certifications are very useful for marketing, especially for the premium priced helmets.
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Old 06-22-22, 09:48 AM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I believe it means that they are now going with MIPS certification, which also requires testing.

Feel free to buy a helmet that lacks certification for any independent testing, but I'm pretty sure almost all the major manufacturers are going with one sort of certification or another, or they are publicizing their VA Tech results.

People who buy helmets tend to want to be reassured that they are actually tested safety equipment. Go figure.
Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Don't assume that people all feel the same way about this. Manufacturers know these certifications are very useful for marketing, especially for the premium priced helmets.
Can you provide further details about how an interested helmet purchaser can easily determine if the helmet in the store is "Certified by independent testing" for MIPs or any other safety criteria other than by stickers from the Snell Foundation. Does VA Tech or any other "independent" testing agency, besides Snell provide "certification" test results to the public, or sell their blessings, ratings and or a "certification" label to the manufacturers yet?
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Old 06-22-22, 10:42 AM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Can you provide further details about how an interested helmet purchaser can easily determine if the helmet in the store is "Certified by independent testing" for MIPs or any other safety criteria other than by stickers from the Snell Foundation. Does VA Tech or any other "independent" testing agency, besides Snell provide "certification" test results to the public, or sell their blessings, ratings and or a "certification" label to the manufacturers yet?

MIPS certifies. It says it on the box, MIPs also has a yellow sticker on the helmet itself. These certifications are listed on the product info on the websites (how I found out the Specialized helmets are now MIPS certified, BTW).

Otherwise, I have no idea what you are arguing or why I should care to engage with you on it. You're just as capable of figuring out what information is public as I am, and VA Tech publishes its ratings and rankings on its website.

You're free to see as much or as little value in independent testing as you care to. But you don't get to make crazy claims that Snell is the only entity doing it.

Here, knock yourself out:
"Seyffarth says any helmet available on the market with the MIPS yellow dot has been tested by the company and passed the standards it requires for release.“Whenever we are releasing or approving a helmet for production, we have an internal protocol where we require at least a 10 per cent reduction in strain in every impact location, every helmet and every size.

“But that’s the minimum. We see everything from 10.1 per cent to 75 per cent reduction in strain. I would say the most common is somewhere in the area of 25 to 30 per cent reduction in strain.”"
https://www.bikeradar.com/advice/buy.../what-is-mips/

Last edited by livedarklions; 06-22-22 at 10:51 AM.
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Old 06-22-22, 11:32 AM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
You're free to see as much or as little value in independent testing as you care to. But you don't get to make crazy claims that Snell is the only entity doing it.
MIPS is a company that allegedly tests helmets for manufacturers that pay them a licensing fee for using their proprietary technology. It is unclear whether MIPS tests their manufacturer clients' actual production helmets, or just their own products/ processes and then licenses the "MIPs certified" technology to the helmet manufacturers.
I'm not the poster claiming that bicycle helmets are being certified by independent testing organization, and that informed consumers find (or get) much value in "independent" certifications.

Va Tech does not certify anything about bicycle helmets.

I agree that manufacturers know these so-called "certifications" are very useful for marketing, especially for the premium priced helmets.
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Old 06-22-22, 02:50 PM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Don't assume that people all feel the same way about this. Manufacturers know these certifications are very useful for marketing, especially for the premium priced helmets.
I didn't claim to assume such. It is my view of what I think for myself. Should others' views share mine, then that is on them to follow my logic.
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Old 06-24-22, 06:24 AM
  #67  
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Helmet's aren't law in many parts of Europe, indeed, there is a strong argument from those who do not want them whereby they believe wearing one makes the cyclist more confident and more prone to taking risks, ergo more likely to have an accident in the first place.

I wear one because I am 100% in favour of them having had accidents and seen what it does to a helmet - I would have suffered head injuries on a couple of occasions without one. Naturally, they can only save you from their limited scope; they won't protect you from a serious car accident, for example.

In the 80's, I never wore one training but had to wear one of those spongy type things for racing - it wouldn't prevented nothing more than road rash. Pro's never had to wear them until relatively recently for racing.

The vast majority of commuters and leisure cyclists I see don't wear one.


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Old 06-24-22, 06:52 AM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by AlgarveCycling View Post
Helmet's aren't law in many parts of Europe, indeed, there is a strong argument from those who do not want them whereby they believe wearing one makes the cyclist more confident and more prone to taking risks, ergo more likely to have an accident in the first place.

I wear one because I am 100% in favour of them having had accidents and seen what it does to a helmet - I would have suffered head injuries on a couple of occasions without one. Naturally, they can only save you from their limited scope; they won't protect you from a serious car accident, for example.

In the 80's, I never wore one training but had to wear one of those spongy type things for racing - it wouldn't prevented nothing more than road rash. Pro's never had to wear them until relatively recently for racing.

The vast majority of commuters and leisure cyclists I see don't wear one.


Yes. Further, it's always struck me as odd that people who object to the use of bike helmets (usually on the basis of reasoning that they would be of little use to a rider who has been hit by a car at speed) don't see that the same reasoning applies to the use of helmets in almost every other customary application. A soldier who steps on a land mine or is struck by a mortar shell might as well not have been wearing a helmet. A construction worker's helmet is no use if the worker falls from the top of a skyscraper or is struck by a falling steel girder. And both the soldier and construction worker are just as likely to be emboldened by the wearing of a helmet to take unnecessary risks as a cyclist would be.

As to the latter argument, the reasoning is backward: helmet use tends to be higher in locations with high population density and high-speed car/bike traffic because people on bikes in those conditions are, quite reasonably, motivated by the instinct of self-preservation. Although some might argue that the brakeless fixie ninjas who richochet at speed through dense traffic (see all the showoff Youtube videos) avoid the use of helmets because they don't want to turn into risktakers.
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Old 06-24-22, 11:10 AM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by amitzinman View Post
hear hear!
No. No.

Are you not aware that some rides are club rides, and those clubs often have insurance that requires ride participants to wear helmets?

And I certainly don't want my substantial tax dollars going to pay for medical care for people like the person you quoted. Based on the persona he's created, I doubt he has decent health insurance. In short, a personal choice that has the potential to affect others in a substantial way is not all that personal.
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Old 06-24-22, 12:36 PM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
No. No.

Are you not aware that some rides are club rides, and those clubs often have insurance that requires ride participants to wear helmets?

And I certainly don't want my substantial tax dollars going to pay for medical care for people like the person you quoted. Based on the persona he's created, I doubt he has decent health insurance. In short, a personal choice that has the potential to affect others in a substantial way is not all that personal.
1. I am aware that many people have claimed that "clubs often have insurance that requires ride participants to wear helmets," including a rep of the local club when I asked about their requirement for helmet wear during their local casual non competitive rides. When I asked him if their insurance actually included such a requirement, he told me no there was no insurance requirement but the club leaders wanted a helmet requirement and the "insurance company makes us do it" rationale was an easier sell than "because we say so." I suspect that may be true elsewhere.

2. Your desire not to have your tax dollars going towards medical expenses of people who make personal choices that you consider unacceptable or create an unnecessary tax burden on society is understandable. The same rationale could be expanded to include people who participate in many other behaviors that some people consider unnecessarily risky personal choices such as drug, tobacco or alcohol use, or unprotected sex with multiple partners, maybe even bicycle or motorcycle riding in traffic or speed without full body protection. How would you respond to someone making the argument that his tax dollars shouldn't go to pay for medical care for people like that?
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Old 06-24-22, 02:16 PM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
1. I am aware that many people have claimed that "clubs often have insurance that requires ride participants to wear helmets," including a rep of the local club when I asked about their requirement for helmet wear during their local casual non competitive rides. When I asked him if their insurance actually included such a requirement, he told me no there was no insurance requirement but the club leaders wanted a helmet requirement and the "insurance company makes us do it" rationale was an easier sell than "because we say so." I suspect that may be true elsewhere.

2. Your desire not to have your tax dollars going towards medical expenses of people who make personal choices that you consider unacceptable or create an unnecessary tax burden on society is understandable. The same rationale could be expanded to include people who participate in many other behaviors that some people consider unnecessarily risky personal choices such as drug, tobacco or alcohol use, or unprotected sex with multiple partners, maybe even bicycle or motorcycle riding in traffic or speed without full body protection. How would you respond to someone making the argument that his tax dollars shouldn't go to pay for medical care for people like that?
If you bother to track the argument your checking into now, you'll find that no one suggested anyone be deprived of medical coverage for failing to wear a helmet. Larry was calling people "helmet police" because they refused to let him join their group without a helmet.

I'm guessing you probably talked the poor group leader to death about why they don't have the right to blah, blah, blah, blah blah...

You don't have a right to join a group if you don't respect its norms.
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Old 06-27-22, 01:35 PM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by shelbyfv View Post
There may be a shortage of organ donors.
I am totally against helmet laws, but I always wear mine. Its called freedom. I despise other people telling me what to do!!!

And yes cyclist make good organ donors, they are almost always fit and in good health.
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Old 06-27-22, 02:36 PM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by Trakhak View Post
A friend of mine was waiting for his cat 3 bike race to start when a cat 1 friend of his rolled up and asked if he could borrow his helmet.

My friend said, "Where's yours?"

The reply: "I rode 25 miles here. Where was I supposed to put it?"

(I knew that cat 1 rider, too. Not a mental giant.)
Clearly the cat 1 rider had little to lose.
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Old 06-27-22, 02:41 PM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
I despise other people telling me what to do!!!.
When you tell everyone else what to ride, is it a form of self-loathing?
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