Tim_Iowa

I was looking for a vintage road/tourer when I found my Rivendell. I bought it used on local craigslist, for a steal. I got lucky. And I'm luckier every day I ride the bike.


Things you get with a Rivendell that are hard to find elsewhere, especially all together:
Low bottom brackets
Traditional geometry (smart geometry, with a preference for level top tubes (or nearly so))
Ample tire clearance
High end lugged steel frame
Fancy-ass details and paint job
Smart touring details (rack mounts, etc)
Higher handlebars (head tube extension)
Lots of Made in USA stuff
Excellent build quality (for a bike built-up by their shop)

Things you won't ever get from Rivendell:
Carbon anything
A non-lugged, non-steel frame
Disc brakes
Anything made in China (Taiwan is different, but that may be an argument for another forum)
Flimsy construction
Poorly designed, price point driven components
Racy geometry (very low handlebars)

If these constraints agree with your tastes, you might like a Rivendell. If not, feel free to shop elsewhere. Much of bicycling is taste driven.

I tend to side with the retro-grouch tastes because it's way cheaper to buy quality used bikes than quality new ones. I'm the same way with motorcycles and with cars; I'd rather let someone else pay the depreciation. That means I have learned how to fix old stuff, and I've saved a bunch of money.

OP, look for a used Atlantis. The RBW owner's bunch is a great resource for Riv bikes and gear. Some of those folks get upgrade-fever.

But it's hard to find a used Atlantis, because very few folks sell them once they ride them. Most modern touring bikes (520, LHT, etc) have very similar features to the Atlantis and can be excellent bikes. They'll tour just about as well. But they may not ride as sweetly, and they'll definitely never look like a Riv.

The vintage MTB tourer can be pretty darn good. But the high bottom brackets and slack geometry will make for a deader ride. Again, totally capable of a touring expedition, and much cheaper.

Grand Bois

You can't be serious.

brockd15 

^^^
What a response! Whatever happened to common courtesy?! Kinda funny.

I would put the Co-motion and Riv bikes on the same level. Much different style and approach but a similar purpose.

JAG410

That Co-Motion is fantastic, but it's much closer to the Surly Troll than an Atlantis. I have been a long time Rivendell admirer, and someday I will own one! I'm just not quite ready to settle down with a "forever" bike quite yet.

corwin1968

I would put the Pangea and the Atlantis in the same category as 26" wheeled touring bikes. The Troll is a mountain bike pressed into touring service.

I love RBW and think their bikes are gorgeous. I would be hard-pressed to choose between a Pangea and an Atlantis but as a super-clydesdale the Pangea, with it's oversized tandem-inspired tubing, would be a better choice than the the Atlantis with it's 9/6/9 tubing.

Another option would be the R&E UTB, another 26" wheeled all-terrain traveling bike. They have a stock frameset (built on demand) but custom geometry is only $200 more. This is the route I will go when I do a custom bike.

Wildwood 

Quite serious. I was tired of the GP regurg. These threads sometimes become tunnel visioned. OP talked about hardcore touring, thought the Pangea fit the bill. Quality craftsmanship, made in the great Pacific Northwest, fatties (like the Atlantis), room for fr/rear racks & panniers. No lugs, but what's not to like. Atlantis isn't C&V so why not Pangea?

Edit: Pangea is even Reynolds steel tubing.

Dfrost 

I’ve had a Rivendell Rambouillet for 11 years, and built up a 1987 Marinoni Sports Touring frame (Columbus SLX) with nearly identical components (my eclectic mix) 6 months ago, so I thought this would be useful to the OP question. The Rambouillet was a built in the same factory in Japan as the Atlantis back then, and has nearly identical frame flourishes, but it wasn’t intended as a fully loaded touring bike like the Atlantis.

Both of these bikes seem to have been designed to similar goals: long, non-racing rides and credit card touring, so plenty of tire/fender clearance, longer chainstays with vertical dropouts (44.5cm for the Rambouillet, 43.5cm for the Marinoni), double eyelets on the rear dropouts, single in front. BTW, both frames are the correct size for me – 64cm for the Rambouillet, 63.5cm (both center-to-top) for the Marinoni, but the TT is 2cm longer on the Rambouillet. I’ve set them up so the fit is identical except for bar height. The shots of my three bikes side-by-side illustrate the frame/fit differences described below. If its not obvious, the metallic sage green is the Rambouillet. the metallic red is the Marinoni.



Bar height: A distinct difference is that Grant Peterson added several features to encourage and ease getting bars up to saddle height – the slightly (2 degrees) sloping top tube (noticeable in the above pic), extended head lug and extended steerer. He also claims a lower bottom bracket, but that seems to be identical between these two bikes, and both are only slightly lower than my black 1979 Miyata 912. The result is that a normal quill stem (I’m using a Nitto Pearl that came via Specialized) on the Rambouillet has the bars at or slightly above my saddle height, while the Marinoni would need something like a Nitto Technomic, or one of VO’s taller stems to reach that height. I’m using VO’s pretty Gran Compe stem for bars 3cm below the saddle.



Saddle setback: Worth noting if you like a leather saddle pushed all the way back is that Rivendell seat tube angles are more relaxed (apparent in the below picture), so they don’t require a long setback seatpost to achieve that fit. I’m using an American Classic post with a Brooks B-17 on the Rambouillet, but needed (and like very much) a VO Long Setback post on the Marinoni with a Gilles Berthoud Aravis (same limited rail length as the B-17) to achieve that saddle position, which I require with my very long femurs.



These fit details could be true for any vintage frame, and note that the VO seatpost is only available in 27.2mm diameter, which precludes its use in some frames like my Miyata.

Frame details: Grant designs beautiful lugs with interesting details, and the workmanship is impeccable. BTW, mine was a Rivendell repaint. It came from the era when Rambouillets were a pretty metallic orange, but apparently this one came in with paint defects, so Rivendell had it repainted in this color, and I’ve heard its Imron paint which would be an improvement over what was standard. My Marinoni has more classic, simple lugs with some nice pantographs, and the paint/chrome quality is equally high quality. The lug brazing and finish work is also excellent. Obviously any vintage frame will have its own level of details and patina. To my eye, the 1/8” smaller DT and TT (“standard”) diameters on the Marinoni are apparent when the bikes are side-by-side, and along with the full chrome rear triangle, give it a lighter, more delicate (in a good way) appearance. The Rivendell comparably equipped weighs about a pound more than the Marinoni for those that care (not me), due to the larger frame tubing and slightly heavier rims, tires and larger cassette.

Comfort: Bike comfort is all about the fit for your intended riding, a good saddle, and good quality lower pressure tires, IMHO. The Rambouillet really shines here with the frame design features described above. I’m using Grand Bois Cypres 700x32mm tires on this bike, which ride fantastically well and still have room for fenders. It has room for even larger tires. My well-broken-in B-17 Ti saddle, slotted by Selle An-Atomica years ago, certainly is a major contributor to comfort. The Marinoni is approaching the same comfort level as the GB saddle (no slotting and less nose-up tilt required) gets broken in, and I wanted a slightly more aggressive position on this bike, so I’m fine with the slightly lower bars. It can handle 32mm tires, but the also very nice Grand Bois Cerf 29mm tires on it would be better if fenders were involved.

Riding Feel: This is where the Marinoni shines, and why I bought the frame despite being so similar to the Rambouillet in many respects. It feels noticeably more fun and lively, like it really wants to go even with my modest power – I think this approaches what Jan Heine calls “planing”, when a frame has the blend of stiffness and flex to work with a rider’s pedaling forces. The steering is responsive but not “darty” and yet it’s confident at high speeds (and I've had a bike that wasn't). The Rambouillet feels more “solid” in comparison (someone has described Rivendells as feeling “wooden”) and doesn’t have quite that same “working with me” kind of feel under hard effort that I sense on the Marinoni and experienced with my 70’s era steel Masis. The steering isn’t as quick but doesn’t feel odd as some touring bikes do to me unloaded, and it is even more stable at speed. Those characteristics are very nice for a touring bike, and that’s how I plan to use it in the future (credit card, not camping-type touring). I’m still evaluating riding feel differences in more detail (former aerospace test engineer here) and plan to do back-to-back comparison rides soon with these bikes, including swapping wheels/tires, and trying both with moderately loaded panniers. Maybe I'll go back to being a one bike (that would be the Marinoni) guy, maybe not.

brockd15 

^^^ Just want to say that's an excellent post.
Nice bikes, very good comparison pictures, and very thoughtful explanations.

bikemig 

It's just a bike. It costs more than some and the designer knows how to build up a brand.

When I worked in a shop, I sold more than a few Bridgestones. They were a little pricier than the competition but they were quality bikes and had some really nice touches. I still own 3 of them.

That said, I'm not excited by the rivendells. They are pricey. Rivendell could easily sell some models that would be more affordable (and would still be high quality) but a business decision was made not to do so as a way of making the bikes more "desirable." Good for Rivendell but I refuse to pay a premium for what is at the end of the day just a marketing decision.

mechanicmatt

Rivendell Atlantis or Vintage:

Answer: Yes, hope this cleared it all up.

RJM

I love my two Rivendells and actually do not feel they were overpriced, a bad value, heavy, or designed by an ego maniac. They are great bikes; they ride very well, are good looking, comfortable, robust, versatile, durable, and most importantly are built smartly. I read "Just Ride" and don't agree with everything that Grant wrote into that book, nor do I agree with everything that he has written on their website or in the Riv Readers, but I do agree with much of it. It has been my pleasure to meet Grant and to talk with him on the phone several times...I like him. He seems to have a good attitude and likes to chat, generally cares about the customer and likes to help. He has set up what I would consider my favorite bike shop in the world, staffed with great people selling cool products. Anyway, I just disagree with the GP/Riv hate that seems to come out on forums when Riv comes up.


Now for the bikes. I find that Rivs are very stable bikes and go where you point them without having to work at it. They aren't sluggish, and they are happy being set up in numerous different ways. For instance, I could see having an atlantis and one year having it set up as a fully racked up drop bar touring bike using friction shifters and canti brakes - then the next year switching over to v-brakes, a favorite mountain bike bar setup using trigger shifters, knobby tires, clipless pedals, sans racks and bags to shred trails with - and then the next year switching to Albatross bars, a wide saddle, platform pedals, and some giant balloon tires to catch the local sights with. They really are adaptable bikes.

I also don't find them hugely expensive compared to many of the new bikes out there. I mean, they certainly aren't dirt cheap, but compared to a Trek Madone setup like my Roadeo, I didn't spend much more if any with the Riv.

Anyway, here are a few photos I just took of them and how they are currently set up. Thinking of making the Sam an albatrossed bar cruiser.

DIMcyclist

It's difficult to render a resigned sigh in print...

And apparently you DID take my comments the wrong way; as I said (to quote): "I don't mind Rivs." Or GP; or their shop; or their employees (did I ever say or imply any of that? Did I? No- I didn't think so.): I just get tired of Rivendell owners constantly propagandizing all of that.

If you understand GP's point, theoretically ANY bike can be a great bike; it's all in how you ride it, it doesn't have to be "an original." You don't need to ride a Riv (or read GP's blogs) to be a retrogrouch and dig old Suntour derailleurs.

(And really- what constitutes "an original" Atlantis? An XO? An Ebisu? A 1982 Atlantis Mk. 1? A 1976 Diamond? A late-60's Watanabe-designed Toei? The even earlier French Diagonales that inspired Watanabe? I mean- how far back do you want to go to find an "original?" There isn't one: the premise is an illusion.)

bikemig 

Actually if you want one bike to do it all, you could also go with a modern bike like the Kona Rove or Salsa Fargo. Both are beautiful bikes in their own right, take fat tires, and can be ridden (much like the Atlantis) both as full on touring bikes or as trail bikes. You will get modern stuff on the bike and no lugs which depending on your tastes might or might not be a good thing.

ricebowl

Bleriot...

jmeb

Yeah... I don't see listed frame weights on any manufactures website of popular touring bikes. 520-nope. LHT-nope. Jamis Aurora-only total weight (isn't very meaningful). Riv Atlantis-nope.

The Golden Boy 

Why are you sighing at me?

The post you're quoting is a reply to noglider.

If you're referring to my reply to your post- quote my post and take issue to the stuff I said.

irwin7638

More "desirable" is questionable, even to GP. I read a post no long ago where he had been asked about designing and selling a less expensive TIG welded frame as part of his selection. He said quite simply, he would be throwing his hat in the ring with everybody else and have to compete with them also. By sticking with lugged steel, he not only stays with something he knows and understands but also away from the mainstream competition. You want a good all 'round useful bike, buy a Cross Check, "if you kinda, sorta, gotta have lugged steel..."

Marc

dweenk

How did this get so ugly?

irwin7638

Just a normal Rivendell discussion.

Marc

RJM

Par for the course when it comes to Rivs here. I don't get it.

RJM

After GP's book came out he went to several cities across the country doing book signings and gave a little talk. I went to the one he did in Nashville at a very nice bookstore called Parnassus Books and during his talk he said basically the same thing. He also promoted Linus, Surly, Soma bikes as alternatives to Rivs.

cs1

believe it or not I was looking at a Fargo. Not sure how road worthy it is. Sure looks rugged.

New Yorker

I can't help but notice a strange similarity in tone between put-downs of Grant Petersen and put-downs of Steve Jobs. I'm inclined to think that those who reject popular, conventional thinking tend to become targets. I don't own a Rivendell, but I did read "Just Ride" and found it quite insightful. Walk into just about any serious bike shop in this country and the message could not be more clear: real cyclists ride carbon, wear skintight racing gear and have the latest GPS computers attached to their handlebars. All Grant is saying is that that's fine for a competitive cyclist, but only, what… 25%?… of adults buying bicycles will ever compete. Or have any desire to. And that those featherweight bikes with super skinny tires are not the right equipment for most riders; in fact, they are the wrong equipment for most people's bodies and the way most people ride. Oh the irony. The "mystique" is not with Grant Petersen and Rivendell; it's with the overwhelming preponderance of bikes and gear designed for competition.

Steve Jobs? Hey, there were many ways to download music before there ever was an iPod, but it took Jobs to see that most people have no interest in becoming a computer nerd to do it. Go to iTunes, click on the song you want and boom, it's on your player. And without even having to know what a "directory" or "folder" is. Brilliant.

Disclaimer: I've never owned a Rivendell and won't be purchasing one.

fettsvenska 

I'm sensing some hostility here. Girls, girls...you're all pretty!!

But on a more serious note, I think that you evaluate the Rivendells for what they are and decide if that is the right way for you to go. I don't own one but they appear to be beautiful bicycles.

I've never met Mr. Peterson and doubt that I ever will and wouldn't want to judge any person's character without meeting them in person and having a conversation. I just happen to be quite opinionated about a few things myself so I certainly can't hold it against the guy for taking a strong position on bicycles. That stated, what it sort of comes down to (and I think that Grant Peterson would agree with me on this)...Grant Peterson is just one more dude who is never going to ride my bicycle.

So to address the topic of the original post...I think that you could try out something vintage relatively inexpensively and decide if that is for you. For example, here's a Bridgestone RB-1 for $300. CLASSIC BRIDGESTONE ROAD BIKE

If you try something vintage and it doesn't work out for you, then just reevaluate what you would like to be different and go from there.

Grand Bois

Independent thinkers like Grant have always upset some people and they always will. Where would we be without them?