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Don't Be An Idiot

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Don't Be An Idiot

Old 03-17-22, 10:43 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
That is one awful rail crossing. The shoulder leading into it disappears into a narrow wheel catcher....nasty. There is only two ways to make that crossing. On foot or take the lane. You fall with traffic next to you and you are probably dead.

The rider crossing in the middle was probably trying to minimize those risks.
I am a bit confused. The rider did neither of the two things you identified as the only way to make that crossing. The rider was passing at close distance on a double yellow in between two rows of moving cars.
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Old 03-17-22, 10:57 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by SurferRosa View Post
This guilt by association is a common argument that cyclists use about themselves, and I simply don't buy it. Do drivers of autos do this? I know lazy politicians do it all the time. I look to the thread title for the correct answer.
Please don't misunderstand, guilt by association is very wrong minded. In my mind it is another form of prejudice. That said, it is a reality. Inescapably so. Drivers DO ascribe the attributes of the worst few to our population as a whole and it absolutely CAN affect their behavior. We cyclists do the same grouping. Think lifted 4 wheel drive pickup here.

I am by no means a rolling diplomat for those of us that ride bicycles. I'll happily roll a stop as long as I can do so safely and doing so will not inconvenience other road users. In this case, not passing this line of traffic that was coming up to speed is an easy choice. Not only was it the most courteous option, it was a safer choice.

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Old 03-17-22, 11:18 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard View Post
Please don't misunderstand, guilt by association is very wrong minded. In my mind is another form of prejudice. That said, it is a reality. Inescapably so. Drivers DO ascribe the attributes of the worst few to our population as a whole and it absolutely CAN affect their behavior. We cyclists do the same grouping. Think lifted 4 wheel drive pickup here.

I am by no means a rolling diplomat for those of us that ride bicycles. I'll happily roll a stop as long as I can do so safely and doing so will not inconvenience other road users. In this case, not passing this line of traffic that was coming up to speed is an easy choice. Not only was it the most courteous option, it was a safer choice.
>>> the fact that you have a 1st person experience AND have 1st hand knowledge of a (any) road is irrelevant to A&S posters who read whatever biases they harbor into every post....................................... maybe we'll hear from the pro/con Vehicular Cycling crowd and really get this thread derailed
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Old 03-17-22, 11:37 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard View Post
Drivers do ascribe the attributes of the worst few to our population as a whole.
Bill Cosby said the same about blacks. This line of argument does little good and is far more harmful than helpful.

I am by no means a rolling diplomat for those of us that ride bicycles.
Good.
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Old 03-17-22, 12:09 PM
  #30  
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Here in Texas only old ranchers in old pickups are allowed to drive the middle of the road.

Further note: It's good to see you have a healthy respect for railroad tracks!
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Old 03-17-22, 12:21 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard View Post
Let me see if I can break this down for you.

This is a safety and advocacy forum. Let's start with some definitions.

Advocacy is the act or process of supporting a cause

Safety is the condition of being protected from or unlikely to cause danger, risk, or injury.

The circumstances were this. The road is a narrow 2 lane 35 mph road marked with a double yellow line. A rail crossing that had been closed for 10 minutes is opening. There is a line of cars in each lane perhaps a quarter mile long coming up to speed following the opening. There is anywhere from 4-7 feet of space between the cars in each of the lanes. There are a number of parking lots that cars may be entering or exiting. It's not uncommon for motorists to let other motorists into or through traffic in such circumstances. Motorists are not expecting a cyclists to be passing them in these circumstances, so they are very unlikely to check the rear view mirror before turning. There is an intersection a few hundred feet down the road.

The cyclist has a number of options. Keep his place in traffic and remain on the high traffic road. Keep his place in traffic and turn onto the nearby side-street. Remove himself from traffic until the congestion subsides. Pass as much of the traffic as possible on a double yellow until traffic comes up to his speed, then reenter traffic, forcing those he just passed to be stuck behind him at 20MPH on a 35MPH road.

The cyclist exercised the latter option. Revisiting the word safety, his illegal actions eliminated NONE of the safety threats and introduced more into the traffic scenario. The area is a no passing zone during ideal visibility and traffic conditions for a reason. The 3 foot (or more) rule is in effect in most states because moving autos and bicycles passing each other at that distance is unsafe. There was less than 3 feet between him and the cars he was passing.

From an advocacy standpoint, his actions had a detrimental effect. Nobody likes getting caught by long trains. It is rude for a cyclist to illegally pass a line of cars that are coming up to speed only to force those drivers he just passed to be stuck behind him at 20 MPH on a 35 MPH road. Motorists often have a negative perception of cyclists for no legitimate reason. Giving them a legitimate reason serves to further that negative perception and can build a negative attitude. Negative attitudes can and do foster dangerous behaviors and interactions. Cutting in line because you think you are more important than the people you cut in front of is frowned upon in our society. If you don't think it is, and don't think it's rude, cut in line next time you go to the grocery store, a sports event or movie.

Now with the obvious out of the way, I'll give our members the opportunity to change my mind on the subject rider being a rude idiot.

Explain to me how the riders choice made him safer. Explain to me how his actions were not discourteous.

The purpose of this post is to highlight how the rider's unsafe actions had a detrimental effect on advocacy.
1.) Please show us on the doll where you were hurt.

2.) Please tell how us how this rant on BF will solve the issue that you perceive as a problem. None of us live where you do so what are "we" supposed to do about a perceived problem in "your" area.
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Old 03-17-22, 01:43 PM
  #32  
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" stuck behind him for over a half mile".


The horror. The horror.
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Old 03-17-22, 02:00 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard View Post
I am a bit confused. The rider did neither of the two things you identified as the only way to make that crossing. The rider was passing at close distance on a double yellow in between two rows of moving cars.
Yes, you are confused.

I am advocating two solutions to a very problematic rail crossing.

Where did I say the rider took either of the two alternatives? The rider crossed the tracks in the middle of traffic by the yellow lines.

The rider crossing in the middle was probably trying to minimize the inherent risks of a lousy shoulder that significantly narrows at the rail crossing AND the pavement has large gaps at that edge, which is why I characterized it as I did. The rider had two safe choices as I mentioned, but failed to take either. Riding up the middle is just plain stupid. Crashing on angled rail tracks is very common. You are seeing this as some sort of affront to you personally. I am merely pointing out that this crossing with traffic each direction is very potentially deadly.
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Old 03-17-22, 02:37 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
Yes, you are confused.

I am advocating two solutions to a very problematic rail crossing.

Where did I say the rider took either of the two alternatives? The rider crossed the tracks in the middle of traffic by the yellow lines.

The rider crossing in the middle was probably trying to minimize the inherent risks of a lousy shoulder that significantly narrows at the rail crossing AND the pavement has large gaps at that edge, which is why I characterized it as I did. The rider had two safe choices as I mentioned, but failed to take either. Riding up the middle is just plain stupid. Crashing on angled rail tracks is very common. You are seeing this as some sort of affront to you personally. I am merely pointing out that this crossing with traffic each direction is very potentially deadly.

Gotcha! Thanks for taking the opportunity to clear me up.
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Old 03-17-22, 02:49 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by SurferRosa View Post
This guilt by association is a common argument that cyclists use about themselves, and I simply don't buy it. Do drivers of autos do this? I know lazy politicians do it all the time. I look to the thread title for the correct answer.

Although I agree with OP about the stupidity of the up the middle pass, I agree with you about this. Hell, I could turn that guilt by association argument into one for not bothering to ride with any consideration of others since you know people are likely to associate me with the last rude cyclist they encountered so I shouldn't show weakness.

We're definitely not ambassadors to the rest of the traffic, we'd be crazy to make decisions on that basis.
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Old 03-17-22, 07:57 PM
  #36  
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I have a lot of groups who come to my area to ride. I usually ride solo. I think I benefit from absolution by lack of association. There's not a lot of traffic, but the roads turn enough that it can be very hard to pass 20 riders. You can get stuck for 2 or 3 miles. Drivers see a single cyclist and feel a sense of relief as one rider is easy to get by.
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Old 03-17-22, 09:32 PM
  #37  
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On occasion, as soon as the track clears, I've looked both ways, tossed the bike on the shoulder and crossed. Then was a half mile down the road before the cars caught up.
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Old 03-18-22, 06:44 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
On occasion, as soon as the track clears, I've looked both ways, tossed the bike on the shoulder and crossed. Then was a half mile down the road before the cars caught up.
South bound on this road, I can keep up with traffic until my exit, so I could filter to the front and probably never affect other drivers. I don't like the optics on that though. I just keep my place in line since there are no safety issues associated with it. There are a lot more variables going north. Too long to type out all of the scenarios. I have never found circumstances where I felt like filtering to the front was the right thing to do at this crossing. The one thing that is a constant for me is that I will not filter to the front if I may eventually slow the cars that I filter past. That's cutting in line, and it's rude.
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Old 03-18-22, 06:49 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by jon c. View Post
I have a lot of groups who come to my area to ride. I usually ride solo. I think I benefit from absolution by lack of association. There's not a lot of traffic, but the roads turn enough that it can be very hard to pass 20 riders. You can get stuck for 2 or 3 miles. Drivers see a single cyclist and feel a sense of relief as one rider is easy to get by.
I won't do a group ride that may result in cars getting hung up behind us for a protracted period of time. The group I ride with when I do my occasional group rides are very respectful and accommodating of motorists. A group can add a safety factor. A group of cyclists is more likely to steal the attention away from a distracted driver and a hot headed bully less likely to mess with a group.
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Old 03-18-22, 07:59 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard View Post
I won't do a group ride that may result in cars getting hung up behind us for a protracted period of time. The group I ride with when I do my occasional group rides are very respectful and accommodating of motorists.
Where I live, by law, bikes are considered vehicles. Therefore at times when we group ride, motorists do get hung up behind us and just have to wait for their opportunity to pass.
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Old 03-18-22, 08:20 AM
  #41  
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I left a club that I used to ride with when they would not go single file from 3-abreast for the local police hitting hit lights. They also are fond of sitting and laying in the road when another rider is fixing their flat. I hate them especially when they ride 3-4 abreast on small lanes and I am going the other direction being forced into the ditch. So, yes, cyclists can be idiots, too.

Should I feel any guilt because I am also on a bike?

Local police officer asks me what is wrong with them? I had no answer
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Old 03-18-22, 09:41 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by jon c. View Post
I have a lot of groups who come to my area to ride. I usually ride solo. I think I benefit from absolution by lack of association. There's not a lot of traffic, but the roads turn enough that it can be very hard to pass 20 riders. You can get stuck for 2 or 3 miles. Drivers see a single cyclist and feel a sense of relief as one rider is easy to get by.
..... if you ride 2 wheels you gotta make allowances and sometimes just do the slow poke. Many times I been light speeding an RR and I got stuck behind packs of Harleys and it's hell to get around a bunch of biker/trikers on any kind of road. What the OP describes is a lot like getting off the ferry in Galveston > take your chance on 2 miles of narrow road or wait till the 60 or so cars all drive off (and it's safe)
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Old 03-18-22, 10:02 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Daniel4 View Post
I've waited in-line with congested traffic before and then I realized it doesn't make any sense.

Cyclists who filter remove themselves from being part of the congestion. Those cars are going to be waiting the 10-minutes regardless if the cyclist was in front of them or not. But the line up is shorter than the length of that bike.
In the specific case described by the OP, though, how does filtering help you? You have to wait for the train to pass either way (whether you filter or not), so at most you're "saving" a hundred yards or so, which is negligible in the context of a typical 1hr+ ride. I can see filtering to a stop sign (assuming it's safe to do so, of course), so that you don't have to stop and go a bunch of times. I can see filtering to a traffic light, so you don't miss the green cycle and have to wait for the next one. In this case, however, you aren't really saving anything by filtering.

And filtering doesn't "remove (yourself) from being part of the congestion", it only moves you to the front of the congestion.

The point is that we should not be oblivious to the effects of our actions. I usually ride low-traffic roads so I'm normally not blocking traffic, even though most of the roads I ride are too narrow for a bicycle and a car to share, and there is rarely a shoulder to ride on. However, when I do get a line of a few cars stuck behind me, it costs little to pull into a driveway or cross street for a couple of seconds to let cars get by. If stuck at a railroad crossing with a line of cars behind me, it costs nothing to wait a few seconds while the cars behind me pass before starting out again. And, if the road is too narrow to share the lane with a car, then it's too narrow for filtering, too. Sometimes we cyclists want it all our own way: we want motorists to drive safely and considerately around us, but we also want to be able to ride dangerously and rudely around motorists. Not that I'm perfect, I've done stupid/dangerous/rude things on occasion, too, both riding and driving.

I'm not convinced that a lot of motorists actively take it out on other cyclists when they see one behaving badly, but it does seem reasonable that they would be less willing to give cyclists in general the benefit of the doubt. There are always the hotheads, of course, who will do the "punish pass", or lay on the horn, or yell something (usually unintelligibly). Most motorists I've been around don't do that sort of thing, however. They're much more aware of cyclists and drive much more safely around cyclists than they did 30 years ago when cyclists were rare birds. To me this indicates that most of the rude/dangerous actions by motorists are due to ignorance rather than malice.
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Old 03-19-22, 07:04 AM
  #44  
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I love it when slower moving vehicles are bunched-up because it's a golden chance to slipstream. I feel like I'm the only one that does it, but if it were me, I'd hang back and try to get behind a truck or something that creates a nice draft. I can go 30 mph no problem with a slipstream (with panniers). It looks dangerous, but if you focus on the brake lights, you can stop in time without issue

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Old 03-22-22, 06:50 PM
  #45  
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Anyone who manages to slow down a group of cars is a hero. Thousands of people die on the streets because cars want to drive faster. Shame on you for calling him an idiot.
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Old 03-22-22, 07:34 PM
  #46  
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I only filter to the front if the road is wide enough or has bike lane or the traffic is slow enough for me to pace. Else, I don't. That is for my OWN SAFETY.

On the other hand, I don't mind other riders indiscriminately filtering to the front. Really don't care.

I still drive a car occasionally when buying too many groceries for the bike to carry. The car is used mostly to haul stuff now. But any purchases under 50 lbs, I use the bike.
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Old 03-22-22, 07:40 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
I left a club that I used to ride with when they would not go single file from 3-abreast for the local police hitting hit lights. They also are fond of sitting and laying in the road when another rider is fixing their flat. I hate them especially when they ride 3-4 abreast on small lanes and I am going the other direction being forced into the ditch. So, yes, cyclists can be idiots, too.
Huh?
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Old 03-23-22, 07:07 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
Huh?
Exactly.

Bring some clothing to stay warm. Get the hell off the road.
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Old 03-23-22, 10:52 AM
  #49  
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Soooooo how many topics per day do I get to post about "motorists being idiots" ? I don't think the forum servers could handle the load.
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Old 03-24-22, 04:56 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by prj71 View Post
I guess I don't care how others ride their bicycle. Not my monkeys, not my circus. Thus I see no reason for his rant.
Good stuff coming from the guy that ridiculed people for buying/using a Peloton trainer in a recent thread
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