9-Speed on a Vintage Steel Bike
#26
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Mission Viejo
Posts: 5,806
Bikes: 1986 Cannondale SR400 (Flat bar commuter), 1988 Cannondale Criterium XTR, 1992 Serotta T-Max, 1995 Trek 970
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1943 Post(s)
Liked 2,164 Times
in
1,323 Posts
I actually bought a 13t cog a couple weeks ago. If years ago someone would have said I would be doing that, I would have laughed at them.
John
#27
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2022
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Brand new 120mm OLD 11spd Cassette hub
Hello all,
I bought a fairly new fixie with a track frame with 120 mm OLD, which I want to convert to a 1x drive with rear derailleur.
I believe that I have read through all threads on this conversion issue available anywhere. Yesterday night however, I happened to come across this Bitex RAR8 cassette hub with OLD 120mm, which to my knowledge has not been mentioned anywhere before:
imgur.com/2Gfuj0P.png
imgur.com/RZvflUw.png
So this is a 120mm OLD hub that seems to be available with all current main drivers (except Microspline).
As I understand it, this means that with this hub you can run cassettes with up to eleven sprockets virtually in any OLD-120 frame.
Apart from the possibly problematic dishing, is that not sensational news?
I bought a fairly new fixie with a track frame with 120 mm OLD, which I want to convert to a 1x drive with rear derailleur.
I believe that I have read through all threads on this conversion issue available anywhere. Yesterday night however, I happened to come across this Bitex RAR8 cassette hub with OLD 120mm, which to my knowledge has not been mentioned anywhere before:
imgur.com/2Gfuj0P.png
imgur.com/RZvflUw.png
So this is a 120mm OLD hub that seems to be available with all current main drivers (except Microspline).
As I understand it, this means that with this hub you can run cassettes with up to eleven sprockets virtually in any OLD-120 frame.
Apart from the possibly problematic dishing, is that not sensational news?
Last edited by David.P; 05-28-22 at 05:49 AM. Reason: typo
#28
Wheelman
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Putney, London UK
Posts: 844
Bikes: 1982 Holdsworth Avanti (531), 1961 Holdsworth Cyclone
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 297 Post(s)
Liked 675 Times
in
340 Posts
I've recently done something similar on an 82 Holdsworth Avanti (126 old, 6 speed freewheel) without resetting the spacing.
I bought some Mavic MA2 rims and they came with Shimano RX100 hubs, rear was FH-A551 which is the 8 speed version.
I managed to respace the rear hub and redish the wheel so OLD was 127mm with 5.5mm clearance between the small cog and the dropout.
I did have to get a SunTour Cyclone Mk2 GT to handle the 8 gears but it works fine with an SRAM PG-850 (11-32).
I believe if you can get an 8 speed freehub on there then you can fit 8/9/10 in the same space just by changing the cassette.
I bought some Mavic MA2 rims and they came with Shimano RX100 hubs, rear was FH-A551 which is the 8 speed version.
I managed to respace the rear hub and redish the wheel so OLD was 127mm with 5.5mm clearance between the small cog and the dropout.
I did have to get a SunTour Cyclone Mk2 GT to handle the 8 gears but it works fine with an SRAM PG-850 (11-32).
I believe if you can get an 8 speed freehub on there then you can fit 8/9/10 in the same space just by changing the cassette.
#29
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2022
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Full width hyperglide driver in 120mm track frame -- will it blend?
Here are two pictures.
First, a comparison of the Bitex RAR8 120mm cassette hub to a normal 10/11-speed cassette hub with 130mm OLD:
imgur.com/brPbxYR.png
Second, a photo montage with the Bitex RAR8 hub installed in a 120mm OLD track frame, including comparison with 130mm cassette hub:
imgur.com/8F1qnNP.jpg
The right hand side hub flange is basically in-line with the right hand side of the tire.
Do you gents think this is feasible -- or will the rear wheel collapse immediately on me because of the extreme asymmetry & dishing?
First, a comparison of the Bitex RAR8 120mm cassette hub to a normal 10/11-speed cassette hub with 130mm OLD:
imgur.com/brPbxYR.png
Second, a photo montage with the Bitex RAR8 hub installed in a 120mm OLD track frame, including comparison with 130mm cassette hub:
imgur.com/8F1qnNP.jpg
The right hand side hub flange is basically in-line with the right hand side of the tire.
Do you gents think this is feasible -- or will the rear wheel collapse immediately on me because of the extreme asymmetry & dishing?
Last edited by David.P; 05-28-22 at 05:46 AM. Reason: updated the second image
#30
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2022
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Here is the hub photo-montaged into the frame again, this time including rims and spokes:
imgur.com/8F1qnNP.jpg
Last edited by David.P; 05-28-22 at 05:46 AM. Reason: added image (link, since am not allowed to post images yet)
#31
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Northern Shenandoah Valley
Posts: 4,141
Bikes: More bikes than riders
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1446 Post(s)
Liked 762 Times
in
570 Posts
I think that'll be the primary potential downside. What is the narrowest 8-speed hub traditionally available? I think 7-speed is as narrow as 126mm OLD and 8-speed is as narrow as 130mm OLD? I'm sure someone will check me on that. So this hub is taking another 10mm off compared to that, so you'd have to dish the rim towards the drive side by another 5mm compared with 130mm 8-speed, if I'm thinking about that geometry correctly.
I guess the main drawback to that is a wheel that's not as laterally stable or as strong as something with more symmetrical dish. Depending on how and where you ride, that may not be a concern.
I guess the main drawback to that is a wheel that's not as laterally stable or as strong as something with more symmetrical dish. Depending on how and where you ride, that may not be a concern.
#32
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2022
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Thanks! Actually the bike will be mostly used as a cafe racer in a flat area.
Maybe someone looking at this thread could be so kind as to upload the two images, so that they can be seen more easily by others. I am not allowed to upload pictures yet as a newbie in the forum.
Bitex RAR8 120mm cassette hub compared to normal 130mm OLD 10/11-speed cassette hub:
imgur.com/brPbxYR.png
Photo montage of the installation of the Bitex hub in a rear wheel:
imgur.com/Rpp1eCd.jpg
Maybe someone looking at this thread could be so kind as to upload the two images, so that they can be seen more easily by others. I am not allowed to upload pictures yet as a newbie in the forum.
Bitex RAR8 120mm cassette hub compared to normal 130mm OLD 10/11-speed cassette hub:
imgur.com/brPbxYR.png
Photo montage of the installation of the Bitex hub in a rear wheel:
imgur.com/Rpp1eCd.jpg
Last edited by David.P; 05-28-22 at 05:40 AM. Reason: updated the second image
#35
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Northern Shenandoah Valley
Posts: 4,141
Bikes: More bikes than riders
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1446 Post(s)
Liked 762 Times
in
570 Posts
Pic assist. I'll defer to others who've built way more wheels than I have to offer their experience on something like this.
#36
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2022
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Thank you hokiefyd!
The second image in higher resolution can be accessed/viewed here:
imgur.com/8F1qnNP.jpg
The second image in higher resolution can be accessed/viewed here:
imgur.com/8F1qnNP.jpg
Last edited by David.P; 05-28-22 at 05:45 AM. Reason: better quality image
#37
Senior Member
Best case scenario you'd end up with 39% NDS spoke tension.
That's less than 47kgf at 120kgf DS.
Personally I draw the line at 60kgf.
That's less than 47kgf at 120kgf DS.
Personally I draw the line at 60kgf.
#38
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2022
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Thanks! I didn't know that you can actually calculate this from the dimensions of the hub and rim.
Someone writes here
bit.ly/3wOZ8nk
I shall do further research on this. Of course, I'd be grateful for any further opinions, especially experiences with rather high dishing.
Someone writes here
bit.ly/3wOZ8nk
The worst tension imbalance I've done personally ended up around 45-55kgf on the NDS (road stuff). But even that works out just fine.
#39
Wheelman
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Putney, London UK
Posts: 844
Bikes: 1982 Holdsworth Avanti (531), 1961 Holdsworth Cyclone
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 297 Post(s)
Liked 675 Times
in
340 Posts
My 8 speed MA2 126 old has 90/39 kgf which is 43% NDS tension.
I measured the hub dimensions and did a spreadsheet to calculate the tensions, OLD, and small cog clearance with different spacers.
I measured the hub dimensions and did a spreadsheet to calculate the tensions, OLD, and small cog clearance with different spacers.
#40
Cheerfully low end
Join Date: Jun 2020
Posts: 1,977
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 646 Post(s)
Liked 1,044 Times
in
667 Posts
So, if I were thinking freehub rather than freewheel, I’d be more interested in this short freehub from SunXCD and maybe put 5 cogs on it.
Hubs ? SunXCD - Bicycle Components
That wouldn’t require much dishing of the wheel. I have my Schwinn spaced to 126 and running a narrow 6, I can just about run an undished wheel.
Otto
#41
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2022
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Yes, I've seen the SunXCD hubs, similar also these ones:
janheine.wordpress.com/2013/09/21/grand-bois-5-speed-cassette-hubs/?iframe=true&theme_preview=true
I think the problem is that there are hardly any 5/6spd cassettes anymore, and probably close to none with a higher gear ratio
Further, I have made an update to the photo montage by mounting the actual rims to be used, the H+Son SL42:
imgur.com/bAbvQtM.jpg
These rims should also relieve the situation somewhat, since they are very stiff, and the spokes are somewhat shorter.
janheine.wordpress.com/2013/09/21/grand-bois-5-speed-cassette-hubs/?iframe=true&theme_preview=true
I think the problem is that there are hardly any 5/6spd cassettes anymore, and probably close to none with a higher gear ratio
Further, I have made an update to the photo montage by mounting the actual rims to be used, the H+Son SL42:
imgur.com/bAbvQtM.jpg
These rims should also relieve the situation somewhat, since they are very stiff, and the spokes are somewhat shorter.
Last edited by David.P; 05-29-22 at 04:38 AM.
#42
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Northern Shenandoah Valley
Posts: 4,141
Bikes: More bikes than riders
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1446 Post(s)
Liked 762 Times
in
570 Posts
How would a 5-speed cassette body work? Just install 5 of your favorite sprockets of whatever cog count you like and make your own cluster? I guess one might could even do 6 or 7 on it if one wanted to use 9- or 10-speed sprockets and spacing (and either friction or appropriate indexed shifters).
#43
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2022
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Yes, I believe it is possible to mount 5, 6 or 7 Shimano Hyperglide sprockets on both the SunXCD and Grand Bois 120mm hubs:
imgur.com/VgXln3o.jpg
Here is a very informative video about how to put a custom 7-spd cassette together for one of these hubs, using a standard 10-spd cassette:
youtube.com/watch?v=g59R7N-mvAk
Maybe I should better set up my track frame rear wheel this way?
imgur.com/VgXln3o.jpg
Here is a very informative video about how to put a custom 7-spd cassette together for one of these hubs, using a standard 10-spd cassette:
youtube.com/watch?v=g59R7N-mvAk
Maybe I should better set up my track frame rear wheel this way?
#44
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2022
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Also, I'd love to hear any speculation as to which of the three 120mm cassette hubs SunXCD, Grand Bois or Bitex might have the least noisy freewheel:
i.imgur.com/REjKnFe.jpg
i.imgur.com/REjKnFe.jpg
#45
Cheerfully low end
Join Date: Jun 2020
Posts: 1,977
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 646 Post(s)
Liked 1,044 Times
in
667 Posts
How would a 5-speed cassette body work? Just install 5 of your favorite sprockets of whatever cog count you like and make your own cluster? I guess one might could even do 6 or 7 on it if one wanted to use 9- or 10-speed sprockets and spacing (and either friction or appropriate indexed shifters).
Otto
#46
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2022
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
O.k., have now decided to go for the Bitex hub with Shimano Hyperglide driver (for up to 11 sprockets).
Bitex hubs seem to be very high quality:
RyanBuildsWheels: Bitex Hubs, Our In House Hub Of Choice
JustRidingAlong: JRA hubs by Bitex
Also, this hub is still being manufactured, and upgrade/replacement parts are available, yummy ones btw:
Probably I will lace the hub radially on the right side (spoke heads facing inward) and triple crossed on the left side, which also eases the dishing situation a little more:
(full image)
Bitex hubs seem to be very high quality:
RyanBuildsWheels: Bitex Hubs, Our In House Hub Of Choice
JustRidingAlong: JRA hubs by Bitex
Also, this hub is still being manufactured, and upgrade/replacement parts are available, yummy ones btw:
Probably I will lace the hub radially on the right side (spoke heads facing inward) and triple crossed on the left side, which also eases the dishing situation a little more:
(full image)
Last edited by David.P; 05-30-22 at 12:48 PM. Reason: inserted proper links and actual images
#47
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2022
Location: USA - Southwest PA
Posts: 3,078
Bikes: Cannondale - Gary Fisher - Giant - Litespeed - Schwinn Paramount - Schwinn (lugged steel) - Trek OCLV
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1397 Post(s)
Liked 1,876 Times
in
1,079 Posts
not 9-speed - but 8-speed
back in the mid-90's spread the rear triangle on this lugged steel Schwinn Peloton and transplanted Ultegra 600 Dual Control / STI 8 speed components and wheel set from a Cannondale R800 ( w / 2.8 frame )
friend that was a frame builder spread the triangle / installed the fork (Kinesis alloy) and did most of the mechanical work
( note: the tires are flat - this is the first time this bike has been out of the basement in 20+ years )
.
#48
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2022
Posts: 13
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
been there, done that, destroyed beautiful hub
I once laced up my 1st gen Dura Ace rear hub with a radial drive side/3x non drive pattern as a fixed gear (don't need no stinking lockring...) and a thousand miles later realized I'd broken the hub body by transmitting the torque across. Though the radial/3x is a cool pattern, it's just silly. My more modern Dura Ace 10sp freehub laced that way was the inspiration, but it was designed to take the stress.
These days, with weekend rides of 190 miles/16K feet in the backcountry, I don't deal with anything except 3x. The gains from shorter spokes are third or fourth order improvements, more for style (IMHO) than effectiveness. Take a careful read of Jobst Brandt's "The Bicycle Wheel".
These days, with weekend rides of 190 miles/16K feet in the backcountry, I don't deal with anything except 3x. The gains from shorter spokes are third or fourth order improvements, more for style (IMHO) than effectiveness. Take a careful read of Jobst Brandt's "The Bicycle Wheel".
#49
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2022
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I once laced up my 1st gen Dura Ace rear hub with a radial drive side/3x non drive pattern
Though the radial/3x is a cool pattern, it's just silly
Yeah, I'm doing it for style reasons, as well as to alleviate the extreme dish-situation with a 11spd cassette hub in a 120mm frame