Why to people ride opposite traffic?
09-24-20, 01:33 PM
#101
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09-24-20, 02:19 PM
#102
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Now your incident description begs the question, "How old was the girl?" Because if she was 12 or younger, she was LEGALLY RIDING ON THE SIDEWALK and you were fully to blame. Drivers must make sure a sidewalk is clear before proceeding. Doesn't matter which way she was riding on the sidewalk - they are not directional. Not much different than you hitting a fast jogger on a sidewalk, or someone in a wheelchair. But drivers often just blast over sidewalks all the time assuming people will get out of the way. This is irresponsible and wrong; drivers have to cross sidewalks with care.
Now if she was an adult, then that changes the legal determination. However, fault might end up being 50/50. Sure, an adult shouldn't be riding on the sidewalk, but a driver still must exhibit care crossing sidewalks because she COULD HAVE BEEN A CHILD. But still, it still doesn't really matter; it seems you drove across the sidewalk without enough care to avoid someone using the sidewalk.
Now if she was an adult, then that changes the legal determination. However, fault might end up being 50/50. Sure, an adult shouldn't be riding on the sidewalk, but a driver still must exhibit care crossing sidewalks because she COULD HAVE BEEN A CHILD. But still, it still doesn't really matter; it seems you drove across the sidewalk without enough care to avoid someone using the sidewalk.
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09-25-20, 06:42 PM
#103
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It's an irrational fear analysis. People greatly fear being hit from behind because they wouldn't see it coming. Never mind that those types of accidents are relative uncommon (I think I read something like 6-8%) and that riding wrong-way greatly increases head-on crashes. A better response would be to use a flashing tail light so that drivers see them better. It's always safer to behave predictably, and riding against traffic just ain't that.
So people do it to be 'safer' but in the end they make themselves less safe.
So people do it to be 'safer' but in the end they make themselves less safe.
06-26-21, 08:36 PM
#105
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There are some two way bike lanes that go against traffic in indianapolis but in the absence of bike lanes with traffic is law.
06-26-21, 11:24 PM
#106
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However, riding a bike against traffic while believing its safer that way, that takes the mick. But what do you expect from people that need instructions that the coffee is hot or that you should not dry your cat in microwave oven...
06-27-21, 08:50 AM
#107
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Haven't yet ridden the wrong way on a roadway myself. Even with the risks, I feel with lighting and DayGlo vests and reflectors, it's hard to not be seen even on a relatively narrow and winding road. I hate it, but the alternative on such roads is uglier.
Though, truth be told, I often did this on narrow roads when I used to run. It was about the least-ugly way to be running along a route where there was no sidewalk, trail or bike lane to be running on. Against traffic, in a relatively lightly-used lane, one (as a runner) could see oncoming traffic and could easily get off the road long before the approaching car was anywhere near. Far safer, though technically unlawful. No way would I run on such a road in a manner failing to see what was approaching.
Why do people, in general, do such things? Mindless assumption they'll be seen, they'll be safer, and (I'm sure, with some) that they've every right to ride where they please. I just stopped in my lane, once, on a one-way road, when an oncoming "salmon" cyclist was assuming I'd pull over and make room. There was no such room, and there were vehicles in the next lane over. So, forced to pull his finger out, he finally hopped up to the sidewalk where he should have been in the first place. Probably saved him from being run down. Given it was at the darker side of dawn ... and he had no reflectors or lighting or reflectors.
Though, truth be told, I often did this on narrow roads when I used to run. It was about the least-ugly way to be running along a route where there was no sidewalk, trail or bike lane to be running on. Against traffic, in a relatively lightly-used lane, one (as a runner) could see oncoming traffic and could easily get off the road long before the approaching car was anywhere near. Far safer, though technically unlawful. No way would I run on such a road in a manner failing to see what was approaching.
Why do people, in general, do such things? Mindless assumption they'll be seen, they'll be safer, and (I'm sure, with some) that they've every right to ride where they please. I just stopped in my lane, once, on a one-way road, when an oncoming "salmon" cyclist was assuming I'd pull over and make room. There was no such room, and there were vehicles in the next lane over. So, forced to pull his finger out, he finally hopped up to the sidewalk where he should have been in the first place. Probably saved him from being run down. Given it was at the darker side of dawn ... and he had no reflectors or lighting or reflectors.
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06-28-21, 10:32 AM
#108
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You guys are forgetting one. They are taught to.
I am a middle school teacher and this one comes up at times. The students ask why I ride the way I do. I have even been berated by parents for setting such a bad example.
The police teach the cycle safety class and in it they instruct the kids to ride facing traffic and on the sidewalk when one is available. If no sidewalk is available they are told to ride as close to the curb as possible. Yes, this frequently leaves them popping in and out from behind parked cars.
It has been made very clear to me that I am not to instruct cycle safety to the students. If they ask about it I will give them a copy of the state cycle safety handout, which basically states what we know to be good safety practices. You can be sure it, unlike the district police, does not instruct them to ride in the gutter and facing traffic. I may explain why I ride as I do, however, I make it very clear that I am not saying how they should ride.
. . . Some unsafe practices are the result of direct instruction by "experts."
I am a middle school teacher and this one comes up at times. The students ask why I ride the way I do. I have even been berated by parents for setting such a bad example.
The police teach the cycle safety class and in it they instruct the kids to ride facing traffic and on the sidewalk when one is available. If no sidewalk is available they are told to ride as close to the curb as possible. Yes, this frequently leaves them popping in and out from behind parked cars.
It has been made very clear to me that I am not to instruct cycle safety to the students. If they ask about it I will give them a copy of the state cycle safety handout, which basically states what we know to be good safety practices. You can be sure it, unlike the district police, does not instruct them to ride in the gutter and facing traffic. I may explain why I ride as I do, however, I make it very clear that I am not saying how they should ride.
. . . Some unsafe practices are the result of direct instruction by "experts."
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06-28-21, 10:49 AM
#109
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There are some two way bike lanes that go against traffic in indianapolis but in the absence of bike lanes with traffic is law.
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06-28-21, 10:53 AM
#110
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Your examples probably ultimately come down to the basic issue: non-cyclists see a bicycle as a toy for mechanizing a pedestrian, not as a form of vehicular traffic.
They project pedestrian norms, and get surprised and angry when actual cyclists turn out to be much more car-like than pedestrian-like.
That said, little kids riding on their own probably need to adopt some pedestrian behaviors. We don't let kids drive cars because things like reading the intent of other traffic is a complex skill which gets no simpler when you're interacting with it from a bike.
Last edited by UniChris; 06-28-21 at 11:01 AM.
06-28-21, 10:58 AM
#111
Old enough, hmmm?
You guys are forgetting one. They are taught to.
I am a middle school teacher and this one comes up at times. The students ask why I ride the way I do. I have even been berated by parents for setting such a bad example.
The police teach the cycle safety class and in it they instruct the kids to ride facing traffic and on the sidewalk when one is available. If no sidewalk is available they are told to ride as close to the curb as possible. Yes, this frequently leaves them popping in and out from behind parked cars.
It has been made very clear to me that I am not to instruct cycle safety to the students. If they ask about it I will give them a copy of the state cycle safety handout, which basically states what we know to be good safety practices. You can be sure it, unlike the district police, does not instruct them to ride in the gutter and facing traffic. I may explain why I ride as I do, however, I make it very clear that I am not saying how they should ride.
. . . Some unsafe practices are the result of direct instruction by "experts."
I am a middle school teacher and this one comes up at times. The students ask why I ride the way I do. I have even been berated by parents for setting such a bad example.
The police teach the cycle safety class and in it they instruct the kids to ride facing traffic and on the sidewalk when one is available. If no sidewalk is available they are told to ride as close to the curb as possible. Yes, this frequently leaves them popping in and out from behind parked cars.
It has been made very clear to me that I am not to instruct cycle safety to the students. If they ask about it I will give them a copy of the state cycle safety handout, which basically states what we know to be good safety practices. You can be sure it, unlike the district police, does not instruct them to ride in the gutter and facing traffic. I may explain why I ride as I do, however, I make it very clear that I am not saying how they should ride.
. . . Some unsafe practices are the result of direct instruction by "experts."
Yes, this NA practice has always puzzled me — OK I've only lived here for 52 years.
Bicycles are part of road traffic and the same rules/laws should apply! Apart from riding with the flow there are also the stop signs that need to be obeyed and .. and .. and.
BTW when riding on 2 lane roads with a fair flow of traffic and no paved emergency strip, I leave myself 1.5 m (5 ft) of space to the shoulder of the pavement. That's a bit more than required by law in some places and I keep my ears and eyes tuned.
For impatient drivers I point to the left and move a bit to the right.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/re...dzK/story.html
06-28-21, 10:58 AM
#112
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Their Mommas told them it was Safer.
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06-28-21, 10:59 AM
#113
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The police teach the cycle safety class and in it they instruct the kids to ride facing traffic and on the sidewalk when one is available. If no sidewalk is available they are told to ride as close to the curb as possible. Yes, this frequently leaves them popping in and out from behind parked cars.
06-28-21, 11:15 AM
#115
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In my town, there are dedicated bike lanes on some roads, and these have large arrows painted on the pavement to indicate proper direction. Despite this, I often see people, including adults, riding against the flow.
06-28-21, 11:29 AM
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But you have to wonder why, then, as @Robert C points out, do police teach young children to ride against traffic.
That said, while the chance of injuring others is lower, cycling in traffic is arguably a more mature skill than driving in it, so there is some dilemma of what to ask of kids at what age.
The problem is that even a little kid on training wheels can enter an intersection from the sidewalk at an unexpected speed. Pedestrian right of way does not include the authorization to leave a place of safety in a manner which does not give approaching traffic reasonable reaction time.
06-29-21, 04:14 AM
#117
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I'm going to go out on a limb and assert that this must be an American phenomenon. While there is no shortage of stupid behaviour to be seen in Australian drivers and cyclists, I rarely see cyclists salmoning on the streets of Sydney. I've never heard of kids being instructed to ride that way. 
06-29-21, 08:48 AM
#118
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Agree it's a bad idea on the whole to teach this, but I think there is an argument to be made in favor of a low-speed rider, who may not have much situational awareness or knowledge of driver behavior, riding in such a way that they can see approaching traffic. I am also continually surprised to see runners and walkers with their backs to traffic when doctrine is the opposite for good reason.
06-29-21, 09:28 AM
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Rather, what I do buy is that there are situations where for those who can't be expected to practice adult-level scenario modeling of drivers intentions (what does it mean that that car is slowing) just as are required to actually drive a car, the mechanized pedestrian mode can have merit.
But only if they stick to the physical and legal fact that pedestrians do not get to rapidly enter intersections in a way that gives drivers no time to react. And doubly so if they do it in the counterflow direction compared to anything moving at non-negligable speed.
I am also continually surprised to see runners and walkers with their backs to traffic when doctrine is the opposite for good reason.
Last edited by UniChris; 06-29-21 at 09:31 AM.
06-29-21, 09:30 AM
#120
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I don't buy that, and would note that it imposes a danger on cyclists travelling in the legal direction.
Rather, what I do but is that there are situations where for those who can't be expected to practice adult-level scenario modeling of drivers intentions (what does it mean that that car is slowing), the mechanized pedestrian mode can have merit.
But only if they stick to the physical and legal fact that pedestrians do not get to rapidly enter intersections in a way that gives drivers no time to react.
Or without much reason. Really what matters is if people are or are not suddenly ending up where they're not expected to be.
Rather, what I do but is that there are situations where for those who can't be expected to practice adult-level scenario modeling of drivers intentions (what does it mean that that car is slowing), the mechanized pedestrian mode can have merit.
But only if they stick to the physical and legal fact that pedestrians do not get to rapidly enter intersections in a way that gives drivers no time to react.
Or without much reason. Really what matters is if people are or are not suddenly ending up where they're not expected to be.
06-30-21, 06:26 PM
#121
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I recently got a flier from the Minato City office here in Tokyo, these were sent to every household in MInato City (which is Akasaka, Roppongi, Azabu, Odaiba, Hamamatsu-cho, etc). These fliers were reminders about the street rules for riding bicycles, and the potential penalties of breaking these rules. They were nice enough to send me a copy printed in English.
If you run a red light or stop sign, the potential penalty is 90 days in jail, and/or a $500 fine. If you ride a bike drunk, the potential penalty is 1 year in jail and a $3000 fine. Riding on the sidewalk can result in a $300 fine, riding the wrong way on a street can cost $500 and 90 days in jail. Normally the police don't waste their time bothering cyclists, they are too busy giving directions to old people and harassing Filipinos. But since the pandemic, countless food delivery bikes (Uber Eats and others) have taken to the streets, and have caused mayhem with their disregard for traffic rules, and I have seen police stopping and even taking away some of these riders for running red lights and such.
If you run a red light or stop sign, the potential penalty is 90 days in jail, and/or a $500 fine. If you ride a bike drunk, the potential penalty is 1 year in jail and a $3000 fine. Riding on the sidewalk can result in a $300 fine, riding the wrong way on a street can cost $500 and 90 days in jail. Normally the police don't waste their time bothering cyclists, they are too busy giving directions to old people and harassing Filipinos. But since the pandemic, countless food delivery bikes (Uber Eats and others) have taken to the streets, and have caused mayhem with their disregard for traffic rules, and I have seen police stopping and even taking away some of these riders for running red lights and such.
07-01-21, 05:52 AM
#122
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07-02-21, 05:31 AM
#123
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I was always taught that if I am walking I should be walking against traffic for safety, and if I'm riding I should be riding with traffic for safety. Maybe the people you see were never taught the second part, and see riding as an activity not done in a car and therefore they believe it is safer to ride against traffic. Or maybe they just feel safer being able to see the cars coming at them even if the reality is that it is more dangerous.
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07-02-21, 11:57 AM
#124
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For the first time in my life, yesterday, I rode a whole city block against traffic. Just to see what it was like. I kept well to the left. A few cars passed me, oblivious.
It was fun.
Thank you.
It was fun.
Thank you.