cyclezen

OP, this...
90-100 k , with some solid climbing, is not a way to become accustomed to positional changes... 30 to 50k, long warmup with an easy gear, gradually working into a lighter tempo ride.
climbing using cadence rather than power... is a better way to let your body adjust to adjustments.
Outside knee pain can commonly be caused by quad related issues (but not the ONLY source of these issues), some inflammation, often misconstrued as IT issues.
Having started your saddle move back, you are NOW engaging the Quads earlier in the pedal stroke than before... see the muscle engagement chart I posted.... THAT earlier engagement could easily be causing light inflammation, which appears as pain in the outside knee cap.
Go easy for a while after making an 'adjustment', adding distance and power/intensity over 'Days' of riding not minutes or hours...
and you will do it your way.
Ride On
Yuri

philbob57

All your photos show your arms to be pretty stiff and straight, with no discernible bend in your elbows. I would expect stiff arms to generate complaints that are different from yours, but stiff, straight arms do not make for a comfortable ride. I can't do the geometry in my head, but I suspect a shorter stem won't do what you need for your current bike.

If you can't tilt your pelvis enough to bend your arms comfortably, which is OK, you probably need a more upright bike. That's an expensive 'adjustment', but it does follow the principle of making your bike fit your body.

I agree with the posters who say you have not tested the new settings even close to enough. Your seat was so abnormally far forward for a road bike (though it may be great for a time trial bike), that you are doing yourself a disservice by not giving conventional wisdom a solid test for several rides and many miles.

If you do really need your seat that far forward, and if you also need a more upright bike, your new bike probably needs a bigger seat tube angle and a bigger seat tube, which would give you a bigger head tube - more upright, too - you'd probably get a longer effective top tube with a bigger bike, of course, but that's where a shorter stem might come in.

Branko D

There's a range of what is "race geometry", and sure, the Cannondale Supersix evo is not as long and low as the Tarmac SL7 (and if you timed the same sized bike with a stock setup, you can be sure it would be slightly slower on a flat segment, but you could just size one down with a slightly longer stem), but even though it sits at the less "race fit" end of the spectrum, it's still pretty far from a Giant Defy; the Cannondale has a reach/stack of 390/574 in it's size 56, while the Defy L with the same reach will have 390/605, or the ML will have 381/586.

This relation of reach to stack is really what differentiates race bikes (particularly the "aero" ones) and endurance bikes.

razorjack

when crank arms are horizontal ?

PeteHski

I know what you are saying and I mostly agree, but comparing bikes of different sizes when talking about their design geometry is not apples to apples. Of course you could size down the SuperSix and fit a longer stem, but it doesn't change the base design. In the same frame size (58 cm) the SuperSix Evo is 10 mm shorter and 13 mm higher than the equivalent Tarmac. The equivalent Defy is a further 5 mm shorter and 11 mm higher than the SuperSix, so effectively another step shorter and taller as you may expect for an endurance frame.

Going lower may well give you some free speed on the flat, but only if it works for you overall. My primary events are 100 mile Sportives/GFs with a lot of climbing and not much solo flat riding, so aero is not my top priority. But when I am riding solo on flat I can still get as low as my flexibility will allow simply by bending my elbows, so bar height is not that critical for my aero performance. I just set the bar at a a height that is comfortable to ride on the hoods and drops with my natural reach.

cyclezen

SO, we are taking this beyond the OP's envelope - which is a good thing.
Of course, for most who aren't considering 'racing' performance, a balance of comfort and 'performance' (which could mean 'speed' on a local hammerfest ride, 'time' or just completion on a long, endurance type of ride and any variation of 'recreational' riding) are things most of us are trying to create/find.
Yes, we all have 'options' beyond what the bike Dims will provide. But humans are creatures of habit... Knowing you can bend your elbows and actually doing it are often 2 different things.
If you have elbows and never bend them, then ability to do that is meaningless.
Best is - to use the range of 'adjustments' your own body can afford - have a bike which allows you to have as full a range of positions as possible. Riding for any length of time is often best handled when one can make small positional shifts/changes throughout the ride. The absolute most punishing races for me were the shorter duration Crits (under 2 hrs) which had us all riding 'on the rivet' for the entire race and sprinting out of every corner... Awful hard, because, except for the corner exit sprint, you had to be full gas all the time and in a singular position. Only luxury ever afforded was the slight fore/aft movement on the saddle, if your saddle allowed it. You could 'moderate' your power expenditure by being in a good draft, mid-field - BUT then you had to sprint of each corner, much harder and for longer periods... no really great options - better to ride closer to the front...
Having more lean and less vertical upper body is as much about 'comfort' as it is about power/aero. Over the time duration of a ride, the vector of 'shock' which comes thru the saddle for a more vertical position is quite a bit more than leaning forward. A leaned spine is able to absorb/dissipate shocks better.
Of course if you have more mass in the upper body, especially non-muscle mass, getting leaned forward means more work/strength to hold. Leading to stiff arms and shocks thru the hands.
Having a vertical spine/back orientation also inhibits the power and range of the most important muscles in the pedal cycle - the glutes. There are illustrative examples of this...
Many riders ride their bikes with their minds fully on the legs as the key elements - then complain about 'pain', soreness, discomfort in the upper body. Then they make 'adjustments' to the upper body which they think will reduce the discomfort, only to find it doesn't help that much.
Sure there's a spectrum between Flippo Ganna in TT position and OPa Fiets going to work or shopping - the key is to adapt to your current body Dims and work towards overall Body improvements ... The bike, as it is will always 'feel' better when the focus changes to the 'motor' (whole body). Make the Body more versatile and then we can ride TT, road and mtb well. Wout vanAert, Mathieu van der Poel...
Ride On
Yuri
EDIT: I hilighted in the quote because that is a good consideration, maybe even key, for many riders. in 'The Drops' with strongly bend elbows at one end of spectrum and on the 'tops' with lightly bent elbows would likely be the best range for many riders. Avoiding the very vertical back with straight elbows - a position no one should wish to visit... unless you're on a fiets... it has it's place, with a 'sprung' saddle... LOL!

Moisture

A 100mm stem, with that awkward handlebar drop thanks to your long inseam, therefore forcing you to maintain that horrible saddle position is ruining your whole setup.

Why didn't you try a different stem along with the adjustment in saddle setback? You shouldnt just keep riding like this, especially at long distances.

I was getting knee pain mostly in my right knee (driveside) which started to get pretty bad when I used 175mm crank arms. More frequent walking really helped alleviate this pain. Switching to 190mm crank arms helped, but the pain eventually came back from continuously pushing too hard on the cranks during hard bursts of sprinting.

I had to take about 2 or 3 months off biking due to an injury which luckily gave my knee enough time to rest and the issue hasn't came back as I'm more careful with my power output.

It mostly has to do with the way your joints are aligned as you push down on the cranks. Your saddle position will certainly affect this. Even if your saddle position was more or less correct with the 15mm setback, the 100mm stem could have thrown things off. There are other potemtial reasons

razorjack

well... didn't know that....and where is the pleasure of riding like this?

a bit twisted logic.... let's set up bike differently (supposedly 'the best' for my body), and then ride slowly, coz my body 'can't handle' it ...

PeteHski

The logic is that your body needs time to adjust to significant changes, whether good or bad. It's a bit like doing a simple exercise like squats for example. If you don't do any squats at all for 6 months and then suddenly do a set of 200 reps, you will regret it the next day. But that doesn't mean squats are a bad exercise. It just means you did too many while not allowing your body to adapt.

Maelochs

Ummm .... you know better.

Plenty of people have decided upon a method, and adapted to using that method .... only to eventually meet a "coach" sort of figure who points out that there are vastly better methods. After having spent years learning to comfortably ride in an inefficient manner, you now have to learn a more efficient method, and un-learn the old method.

If you are happy with your set-up, then why come here asking questions?

If you don't want the answers, why come here asking questions?

If you learn a more efficient riding method, you will be able to do everything you do now .... longer and faster, with less discomfort over time.

if you are already satisfied .... well, there you are.

Let me point out, that none of us came looking for you. None of us ultimately care how or even if you ride. Everyone is offering advice based on their learning and experience .... which is sort of what you asked for.

If you look at the pro peloton or even show up at a local race .... you will find that almost all of the riders have very similar positions on the bike---not based on stem size (most racers use tiny frames and very long stems and seat posts with a lot of saddle-bar drop) but based on relationships between hips, bottom bracket, cleats, feet, hands, bars ...... They do it Because It Works. They measure "works" by how they perform compared to the other riders. if the other riders ride faster, ride longer with strength, spring faster, whatever ..... The racers will try to adapt what is working better for the other riders.

Of course, every one of them have minor differences in proportion, and thus set-up .... but very minor differences, because racers---and the number of coaches, physiologists, doctors, engineers, etc. who study the science of cycling. These riders don't just have "theories," they Test theories. In every race, they see whether a method, a change, a technique, offers a measurable improvement. And because they have to ride as much as their bodies will allow, they have to find the most anatomically correct and efficient postures. If they try some quirky "it has worked for me for years" variation, they will either end up hurt, or sidelined .... or everyone else will start using the "quirky" new method. And if you look at photos of pro riders from five decades ago .... they are still in about the same positions. Not a lot of personal quirks have stood the test of time.

People hare aren't trying to hurt you. We are trying to share information we have learned over years---not all of which is what you need, and probably none of which is what you want, because what you really want is to be reinforced in doing what you already do.

But no one here wants to fight or argue, or remake you into something foreign to what you are now. We are just offering suggestions. And the more you complain that the suggestions are Not suggesting what you already do ... the less the rest of us care. We have been through this process many, many times.

I tend to like it when people who like riding their bikes, share that pleasure, because I like riding my bike. But really, I don't care. The rest of you can break or burn your bikes and walk everywhere .... I don't care.

Pedal on ... or don't.

razorjack

Hola hola !
I've asked questions about bikes (and sizes) in fact, but then everyone decided I don't know how to sit on my bike...
anyway, it's interesting thread and I learnt a bit

Fitting changed in every sport recently, long time ago everyone was telling you - bad posture, bad form, whateva... there was 'one optimal' way for everyone...
just recently (last 10-15y?) coaches recognise that there is no 'one way', and you should do what yo do in optimal way for you, maybe not 'the best' in terms of efficiency, but taking into account biomechanics etc.

Moisture

I'm having a lot of trouble understanding why you made this thread to begin with and why you are not putting in any effort to fix your setup despite all the good help you are getting on here.

No, you're not sitting on your bike correctly. No, it's not because you "don't know how".

You said your bike is "too low" which implies to me that the handlebar drop is too extreme, and "too long" which implies that either the stem or a combination of the stem, reach and top tube length is too short for your torso due to your longer than average legs. Its an easy fix which you dont seem to want to try. Carry on..

cyclezen

Let's go back to your original post...
quote : "Hi.
I had a bikefitting session recently, BF concluded ...
...Any downsides of putting shorter stem? from 110 to 90mm ? other than i mentioned, and also the feeling with steering response is great
or maybe I should look for smaller endurance frame with even higher stack? i see that Roubaix 54 has stack as high as Defy M/L and still 2cm higher than Tarmac 56" /Quote
Then you made other Qs, comments , added some pics...
From that, you've gotten numerous views, but mostly that your current setup has you very upright, and that a shorter stem on your current bike/setup wasn;t going to be an improvement.
And that a smaller frame and higher setup (endurance) wasn't any 'improvement'. But then, we're not you and you decide...
To your statement above. - NO, in road performance road cycling, 'posture and position has not changed much at all - I've illustrated that, and there's plenty more evidence of that available, contrary to your statement..
What has changed is that 'bike' technology for diamond frames has changed and allowed better adaptation to a more optimized position. IE - in my case (and many others) the ability to go to smaller frames - because seatposts longer than 6-8 inches became available - I could actually put myself on a bike which helped me become more optimized for me. Bike design has been tweaked enough to allow more versatility for more riders.
Contrary to what you might believe, your Body Dims are very much in the middle, largest grouping of the variations of Human form. Now how your body functions are your issues to address.
You gotta do what you wanna do - do it and find out...
I'll give one more tip - then I'm going ridin.
You are very much hooked on 'It's ALL about the Bike!" , tech as THE solution - very obvious....
Spend less time worrying about the 'bike' (you have a good bike, able to be 'setup' for you - anything different will not provide any measurably greater returns).
Spend more time focusing on yourself... that;s where you'll find the most and best returns...
Yes, you are no longer YOUNG, you are getting OLD - 'sh$tz' never gonna get easier !!! LOL !!!
If you're still ridin road, 10-15 yrs from now... you'll GROK this thread much better...
ride on
Yuri

growlerdinky

saddles too far forward

Frank S

If it works, for you, do it!
My concern is with braking. With the seat forward, can you move your body weight rearward enough if you really need to grab a fistful of brake?

DaveSSS 

Balanced means having your body weight balanced over the saddle such that there's no excessive weight on your hands.
If you can't ride with one finger on each brake hood, you're not balanced.

razorjack

yes, i know how to brake (i do enduro and DH as well), during hard braking i can easily move my ass 5-10cm behind the saddle.

razorjack

ok, i got it, shorter bike with 100 stem, won't change too much. however i'll have to stay with 90mm stem on my current setup.

of course, if you can adjust your bike more to your needs, it's better, right? that's why i did bike fitting.
thank you for all advices, i'll ride with my current setup (saddle almost max forward) and try to identify problem that happened with a knee (didn't have it before, so definitely it was something with lower/longer position and/or saddle moved back)

razorjack

according to internet gurus - yes, according to my bike fitter - no

razorjack

what's the fix? shorter stem and/or shorter bike.

for a moment I tried 'different' position and it was bad....i'll stick to my position and position recommended by bike fitter

Maelochs

What a total waste this thread has turned out to be.

I admit it, I got suckered. I really didn't suspect the OP was one of those "Tell me what I want to hear or I will fight you" people.

Frank S

Here is what I think:

Over the course of history, the human body did not evolve to ride bicycles. It is a totally unnatural activity. Can we say that "conventional wisdom" applies to everyone?

To me, it looks like the OP weighed all of the advices, and decided to stick with his original arrangement. Is this, somehow, bad? It seems, to me, that he considered the suggestions honestly. Maybe, in a year, he'll have some issue. Then, he might remember some advice given on this thread. If that time comes, and he fixes the problem, but you never know about it, will your time have been wasted?

cyclezen

I sortta agree...
Thread is not just for the OP. OP provided the scenario, from there it's available for anyone to interpret.
I don; think it's a 'waste'. Lots of views, salient points and ultimately the OP did learn a few lessons, like - don't throw left curves at your body, unexpectedly, and expect a good outcome (at least I hope that was learned...) Don;t expect others to mouth or mimic what you hold true/dear. 'Equipment' isn;t always the answer.

As for human body evolution... I sortta think the bicycle was invented/developed to the human body - at least it seems so. That it's not perfect is the state of everything. Thank the UCI for making bike offerings as challenging as they currently are. In spite of which there are some interesting things out there.
Perfection is a nice thing to reach for. But thankfully, it's never attained, by technology nor living nature. Imperfection is the state of the universe, and thankfully so. That's what makes everything so full of constant change, interesting and exciting !
ride on
Yuri
EDIT: so it seems humans are having a hard time getting outside the 'pedal powered' box...
... did a quick seach for "unique human powered mobility designs"

razorjack

Hey ! You don't need to be angry or sad (it's for few ppl in this thread), if I prefer to use advices from legitimate bikefitter instead of you ...
I tried your suggestion, I think i know what was the problem, when i pedalled on drops, my knees were not in a plane above pedals, my torso was too low.

This thread is also a very good example and warning, for everyone, not to follow blindly advices from ppl from internet, especially whose (only?) experience is based on analyzing pictures of pro riders (excuse me for being harsh, i'm not sure about other credentials),
I tried your suggestions, it didn't work, i had a knee pain for few days. Your main response was basically 'you're doing it wrong, hundreds of pros cannot be wrong', instead of at least trying understand the problem....

Well... at the end, that's the reason we go to bike fitter, not to hurt yourself, and to get an advice from professional, right ?

On last few days I had again amazing rides and climbs again, so if you see a cyclists with not-so-pro-position on a Tarmac, it could be me, but at least know that he is happy

thanks Frank for understanding.

shelbyfv

So we've come 180 from the original post and decided to follow advice of the fitter. Makes sense to me....