Any science nerd here work out the work equivalence formula for incline vs. flat ?
#101
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8186 Post(s)
Liked 9,094 Times
in
5,053 Posts
From my observation of riding with people who don't measure power, on a long ride when the objective is to simply ride for 4-5 hours at a moderate effort, people riding on feel will generally significantly up the power uphill. Weaker or heavier riders may not have a choice. Furthermore, some seem to take it too easy on the flat (in comparison to what they could do, looking at their uphill power), hills just force their hand.
It’s a reasonable strategy sometimes, too: I do it when trying to beat a time, or on a hilly triathlon, too - up the power uphill (trying to stay within FTP for the most part, not to burn matches which I'm going to need later) and lower it on the flat slightly to something more sustainable over the hours.
Anyway, there is no real way to equate the two short of using power or at least heart rate / RPE, because it is about the effort and it is entirely possible to go on a conservational pace chatting with your mates uphill.
It’s a reasonable strategy sometimes, too: I do it when trying to beat a time, or on a hilly triathlon, too - up the power uphill (trying to stay within FTP for the most part, not to burn matches which I'm going to need later) and lower it on the flat slightly to something more sustainable over the hours.
Anyway, there is no real way to equate the two short of using power or at least heart rate / RPE, because it is about the effort and it is entirely possible to go on a conservational pace chatting with your mates uphill.
I don't meter, and I just did some long hilly rides with about 20 pounds of stuff in paniers. I had to keep reminding myself not to push it too hard on the hills, especially in the heat. It really is kind of automatic to me to up the effort a bit on hills, I kind of think the subconscious impulse is it's a bit of a challenge, and the faster you do it, the sooner that part of the ride is over. I think I'm good at climbing for my size (about 180), but it's definitely not my favorite thing to do.
Likes For livedarklions:
#102
Banned
Thread Starter
Flats barely any effect.
20 mins of hills is a lot harder than 15 miles of flats.
I'm in it for the fitness HIIT, not the pretty scenery or groceries
#103
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8186 Post(s)
Liked 9,094 Times
in
5,053 Posts
Seriously?!
Can you really not understand that that is true for you because of how YOU ride on the flats, not because of the inherent properties of flatland riding? All you're telling us is you're not trying to go fast on the flats.
You want to try HIIT on the flats? Try going 25 mph (or whatever speed you max out at) for 2 minutes, then 15 mph or slower for 2 minutes. Repeat. Let us know if you don't have any heart rate effects from that. By maxing out, I mean you should absolutely have no ability to go any faster whatsoever without basically passing out from the effort.
And if all you're doing for fitness is that 20 minute routine a few times per week, you're kidding yourself.
I don't get how you could ask the question you did in the OP and then proceed to "correct" every single person who points out that you don't understand the relationship between your effort and the answer to your question. In terms of time, there is no reason you won't max out at the same level of effort no matter what the grade you're riding.
If you had posed the question in terms of work as you did in your headline, it makes sense, but the relevant variable in work is distance, not time. The identical effort on flats will take you farther than you will go with the same effort going uphill.
BTW, your little loop is just as much downhill as it is uphill. I assume therefore that you're probably coasting the recovery phases of your 20 minutes, so basically you're doing what, about 10-15 minutes of actual pedaling? This is ridiculous.
Last edited by livedarklions; 08-18-22 at 07:07 AM.
#104
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 39,505
Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo
Mentioned: 353 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20791 Post(s)
Liked 9,435 Times
in
4,663 Posts
... or he has some piddly kiddie gears.
Hi! You must be new here! Welcome!
Likes For WhyFi:
#105
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8186 Post(s)
Liked 9,094 Times
in
5,053 Posts
What's funny is he makes these general statements about what's "obviously" true that really wouldn't be problematic if he said them as his subjective preferences.
To me, working out is really about as much psychological as it is physical in that I won't make the same physical effort under one set of conditions as I will another just because of my level of enjoyment and/or motivation, so I think it's perfectly ok to say "I find I can't make myself put the same max effort in on the flats as I do climbing." It's when he starts making the obviously false claims about how nobody else can that it goes back to his stupid "heavy bikes are better because you get a better workout" kind of reasoning.
Likes For livedarklions:
#106
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
Posts: 25,032
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8148 Post(s)
Liked 8,800 Times
in
4,368 Posts
20 minutes of easy hills with a low gear is a lot easier than chasing faster riders on the flats for 15 miles. A lot easier.
Last edited by big john; 08-19-22 at 05:27 PM.
Likes For big john:
#108
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8186 Post(s)
Liked 9,094 Times
in
5,053 Posts
#109
Newbie
In general, on a flat, energy is required to overcome air resistance, and a little rolling resistance. On a climb, energy is required to move weight against gravity. There is no standard work equivalence factor.