Brompton T Line w/ factory titanium mainframe
#26
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But mechanical properties are also lower and different, so its not possible to use the same diameter and thickness of tubes than for steel tubes. And this is more true if the Ti is grade 9 and the steel an high end alloy.
So, the saving cannot be 40% of the weight of the steel frame. A Ti frame made with grade 9 titanium with the same diameter and thickness of the tubes as the steel frame will flex a lot and can break.
So, the saving cannot be 40% of the weight of the steel frame. A Ti frame made with grade 9 titanium with the same diameter and thickness of the tubes as the steel frame will flex a lot and can break.
3-2.5 titanium alloy actually has HIGHER tensile strength than Hi-Ten 1020 steel so 40% lighter titanium frame should be actually STRONGER than steel Brompton frame.
And that's why Brompton titanium fork and rear triangles are approximately 40% lighter than steel counterparts.
Ti alloy didn't really evolve while carbon and steel alloy evolved a lot with as results that not only carbon frame can have better performance for he same or less weight but also steel frames in Columbus XCR or Reynolds 953 stainless steel can provide same weight with higher performances than titanium frames.
The lightest MASS PRODUCED titanium road frame (litespeed ghisallo) was lighter than 800gram. HUGE difference.
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And no, Brompton will never use top quality steel for their bike. XCR or 953 frames are actually more expensive than most titanium frames.
#29
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It may be that at the tube wall thickness that meets a design spec dent resistance criteria there's no weight advantage in using higher-grade steel. I'm suspicious of this explanation, too, but it's possible.
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Somewhere between a review and marketing copy :
https://www.rouleur.cc/blogs/desire-...st-look-review
https://www.rouleur.cc/blogs/desire-...st-look-review
#32
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I suspect a lot of it has to do with they sell every bike they make that way. Harley-Davidson used to be like this in motorcycles, too, they sold the same basic design for decades and couldn't keep models on the showroom floor. That market finally failed but Brompton is a long way from a similar fate.
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#33
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Just like to learn from here, is the Brompton bike folding design registered? Some local guys in Hong Kong said the registered design will soon expire (but they simply forget renewal), so there will be many clones at much cheaper prices coming (well there are already!) …
#34
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Just like to learn from here, is the Brompton bike folding design registered? Some local guys in Hong Kong said the registered design will soon expire (but they simply forget renewal), so there will be many clones at much cheaper prices coming (well there are already!) …
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#37
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Just like to learn from here, is the Brompton bike folding design registered? Some local guys in Hong Kong said the registered design will soon expire (but they simply forget renewal), so there will be many clones at much cheaper prices coming (well there are already!) …
Patents are an incentive to folks to invent useful items/processes. There has been a good deal of international cooperation in patent law. These days most countries recognize patents, once granted, running for a period of 17 years from the time of application. Patents cannot be extended or renewed. If a further improvement is made, that improvement can be patented, but that does not extend the patent on the base invention.
There are other kinds of intellectual property that are protected (or not) in different ways. Compositions (text, music, computer software & etc.) and art are generally covered under Copyright. Names, slogans and logos are generally covered under Trademarks. There is much less international harmonization in Copyright and Trademark law, and what is Copyrighted or Trademarked in one country might not be - and probably isn't - copyrighted or trademarked in another.
Bromptons to my knowledge have made three attempts to exclude other Andrew Ritchie design tri-folders from the lucrative European market. The first was some two decades ago when some design copies were offered for sale in the EU. The manufacturer/importer made no effort to distinguish their bikes from Bromptons. IIRC they used identical graphics. Patent protection had expired, so Brompton sued under EU copyright law, pointing out that even the owner's manual was just a copy of the Brompton owner's manual. Brompton won this case.
In 2017 Dahon introduced the Curl at the Eurobike trade show. Brompton filed for an injunction based on...well, I'm not really sure what. At the first court hearing, Dahon pointed out the patent protections had long since run out, a blind man could see the difference in appearance between the machines and the EU had granted Dahon 11 patents on the novelty of the Curl design. Brompton's request for an injunction was dismissed and the company was ordered to pay Dahon's legal expenses.
In 2019 the carbon fiber Chedech bike was offered in the EU. Brompton filed suit claiming copyright infringement, specifically saying the Chedech had the same mainframe silhouette as the Brompton had since the 1988 production run started. The question became: could the appearance of an industrial design be protected under copyright? An upper-level court ruled that under EU law: yes, IF (1) the design was unique, (2) it was an artistic expression by the designer, and (3) another shape could perform the same function. I'm not aware that the lower EU court has returned to make a ruling on Brompton's specific lawsuit.
In the United States the appearance of an industrial design can be separately protected apart from function by something called a Design Patent. (Function is of course covered by a regular patent.) (Brompton does not have a US Design Patent.) I understand in most jurisdictions around the world the appearance of an industrial design cannot be protected.
Last edited by tcs; 01-25-22 at 04:18 PM.
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#38
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Andrew Ritchie's first folding bike patents date from the mid-1970s, and the final form of the basic design appears in patents in the early 1980s. IIRC British and USA patents at the time ran for 17~19 years from the date they were granted.
Patents are an incentive to folks to invent useful items/processes. There has been a good deal of international cooperation in patent law. These days most countries recognize patents, once granted, running for a period of 17 years from the time of application. Patents cannot be extended or renewed. If a further improvement is made, that improvement can be patented, but that does not extend the patent on the base invention.
There are other kinds of intellectual property that are protected (or not) in different ways. Compositions (text, music & etc.) and art are generally covered under Copyright. Names, slogans and logos are generally covered under Trademarks. There is much less international harmonization in Copyright and Trademark law, and what is Copyrighted or Trademarked in one country might not be - and probably isn't - copyrighted or trademarked in another.
Bromptons to my knowledge have made three attempts to exclude other Andrew Ritchie design tri-folders from the lucrative European market. The first was some two decades ago when some design copies were offered for sale in the EU. The manufacturer/importer made no effort to distinguish their bikes from Bromptons. IIRC they used identical graphics. Patent protection had expired, so Brompton sued under EU copyright law, pointing out that even the owner's manual was just a copy of the Brompton owner's manual. Brompton won this case.
In 2017 Dahon introduced the Curl at the Eurobike trade show. Brompton filed for an injunction based on...well, I'm not really sure what. At the first court hearing, Dahon pointed out the patent protections had long since run out, a blind man could see the difference in appearance between the machines and the EU had granted Dahon 11 patents on the novelty of the Curl design. Brompton's request for an injunction was dismissed and the company was ordered to pay Dahon's legal expenses.
In 2019 the carbon fiber Chedech bike was offered in the EU. Brompton filed suit claiming copyright infringement, specifically saying the Chedech had the same mainframe silhouette as the Brompton had since the 1988 production run started. The question became: could the appearance of an industrial design be protected under copyright? An upper-level court ruled: yes, IF (1) the design was unique, (2) it was an artistic expression by the designer, and (3) another shape could perform the same function. I'm not aware that the lower EU court has returned to make a ruling on Brompton's specific lawsuit.
In the United States the appearance of an industrial design can be separately protected apart from function by something called a Design Patent. (Function is of course covered by a regular patent.) (Brompton does not have a US Design Patent.) I understand in most jurisdictions around the world the appearance of an industrial design cannot be protected.
Patents are an incentive to folks to invent useful items/processes. There has been a good deal of international cooperation in patent law. These days most countries recognize patents, once granted, running for a period of 17 years from the time of application. Patents cannot be extended or renewed. If a further improvement is made, that improvement can be patented, but that does not extend the patent on the base invention.
There are other kinds of intellectual property that are protected (or not) in different ways. Compositions (text, music & etc.) and art are generally covered under Copyright. Names, slogans and logos are generally covered under Trademarks. There is much less international harmonization in Copyright and Trademark law, and what is Copyrighted or Trademarked in one country might not be - and probably isn't - copyrighted or trademarked in another.
Bromptons to my knowledge have made three attempts to exclude other Andrew Ritchie design tri-folders from the lucrative European market. The first was some two decades ago when some design copies were offered for sale in the EU. The manufacturer/importer made no effort to distinguish their bikes from Bromptons. IIRC they used identical graphics. Patent protection had expired, so Brompton sued under EU copyright law, pointing out that even the owner's manual was just a copy of the Brompton owner's manual. Brompton won this case.
In 2017 Dahon introduced the Curl at the Eurobike trade show. Brompton filed for an injunction based on...well, I'm not really sure what. At the first court hearing, Dahon pointed out the patent protections had long since run out, a blind man could see the difference in appearance between the machines and the EU had granted Dahon 11 patents on the novelty of the Curl design. Brompton's request for an injunction was dismissed and the company was ordered to pay Dahon's legal expenses.
In 2019 the carbon fiber Chedech bike was offered in the EU. Brompton filed suit claiming copyright infringement, specifically saying the Chedech had the same mainframe silhouette as the Brompton had since the 1988 production run started. The question became: could the appearance of an industrial design be protected under copyright? An upper-level court ruled: yes, IF (1) the design was unique, (2) it was an artistic expression by the designer, and (3) another shape could perform the same function. I'm not aware that the lower EU court has returned to make a ruling on Brompton's specific lawsuit.
In the United States the appearance of an industrial design can be separately protected apart from function by something called a Design Patent. (Function is of course covered by a regular patent.) (Brompton does not have a US Design Patent.) I understand in most jurisdictions around the world the appearance of an industrial design cannot be protected.