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1947 Raleigh Dawn Tourist?

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1947 Raleigh Dawn Tourist?

Old 10-01-07, 04:27 PM
  #1  
Theflyingdutch
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1947 Raleigh Dawn Tourist?

Hi there.
This is another of my bikes. Im not really sure of what it is, but I saw a very similar one on the web. Is it a 1947 Raleigh Dawn Tourist? Is has a 3 speed internal Sturmey Archer AW hub. The seat is not the original Brooks and it misses fenders, head light, tool box, chain guard, and I dont know what else... But it is a beauty.[IMG][/IMG]
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Old 10-01-07, 04:39 PM
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Is that the original place to mount the shifter?
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Old 10-01-07, 04:58 PM
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No...
I placed it there temporarely because it doesnt work too well and it needs to be streched at all times...
Do you know if it is a dawn tourist?
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Old 10-01-07, 05:01 PM
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That looks like a post 1974 chain ring...

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Old 10-01-07, 06:26 PM
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The Dawn Tourist would have had a complete chaincase, and I can't tell if yours has a frame boss for one behind the crank. I have a 1940s Raleigh catalog that shows a Dawn Safety with no chainguard and rod brakes, 26" wheels and a "low bottom bracket." You need to describe more details of your bike to get a sense of the model.

Neal
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Old 10-01-07, 06:57 PM
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Hmm. This one's a bit hard to figure out.

Point #1: The lugs are of the style adopted around 1961-3 (memory fails me) when Tube Investments took over Raleigh. It can't be earlier then this age range. The rod brake bosses are obviously original to the machine, so it can't be a later '70s Sports machine outfitted with rod brakes.

Point #2: The post-'73, pre '77 chainring is an interesting point - is it original? Is it not? We can't tell. If it were confirmed original, it might pin this machine as being a mid '70s U.K.-spec model.

Question #1: Can you check the back of the seatpost to see if there is a serial number stamped into it? If not, could you check the seat lug up top?

Take care,

-Kurt
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Old 10-02-07, 09:20 AM
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Hi thanks for all the help.
As to the chain case, it is completely missing, but I would like one though , same as the mud guards (fenders..)
What is a chainring? I cannot be safe as to what is original and what is not. I bought the bike for 150€ of a local old bike shop, and it was in very bad shape. The bike has been painted black with spray can, and there are some details I cannot figure out, but i'll gently scrape the back of the seat post to look for the serial number.

The paint has already fell in some places, and I can see there is a red pinline on the top frame tube.
Does this help?
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Old 10-02-07, 09:39 AM
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The forks appear to be late 60s-early70s as well as the chainring(front sprocket)and pedals.Other than the rod-brakes the frame looks VERY similar to my 1971 Sport.
I really like the seat.It looks to be in too good of shape to be from the 40s.
Is the date stamped into the hub?
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Old 10-02-07, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Theflyingdutch
150€
150 Euros - mark that.

I gather you are NOT in the U.S. then - or more importantly, you did not buy this machine in the U.S., correct?

If so, I'd immediately peg it as a 1973-76 Dawn, made for the European (don't know exactly what country) market. The fittings on the bike peg it to those years, and the fact that it is not a U.S. export pretty much clears up why such a model existed this late in production.

-Kurt
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Old 10-02-07, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by thebikeguy
The forks appear to be late 60s-early70s as well as the chainring(front sprocket)and pedals.Other than the rod-brakes the frame looks VERY similar to my 1971 Sport.
I really like the seat.It looks to be in too good of shape to be from the 40s.
Is the date stamped into the hub?
Curious, how are you determining the fork as being from the late 1960's - early 70's, and for that matter, the chainring?

True, there is a difference between a pre-TI takeover fork and a post-TI takeover fork, but I'd like to hear your reasoning as to how you know it is a post-TI fork. Few people know how to tell the difference, and from the photo shown by the OP, the distinguishing features between the two fork designs are hardly visible.

As for the chainring, it was determined long ago (not in this case, but just in general) that the design without the two extra bars between each Heron logo dated from 1973 onwards. In 1977, the design was permanently revised to feature the Herons facing counterclockwise to match the headbadge logo (matching the "official" Raleigh logo). Some pre-'77 cranksets were incorrectly stamped the wrong way around, with counterclockwise facing Herons as well, but such cases on a pre-'77 machine are an error of manufacturing, not a official design change. As this bike features a crankset without the extra bars in the ring, plus clockwise-facing Herons, it is quite safe to say that the crankset is from '73-76.

Saddle is a repop.

TO THE OP (Theflyingdutch):

Your machine should have a serial number placed in the back of the seattube, just below the seatlug. Check that area for the serial and report back the first three digits. This type of serial appeared from 1973 into the '80s. Trust me, it will be there.

-Kurt
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Old 10-02-07, 01:16 PM
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Does the bike have an oiler hole at the top of the left (non-drive) side of the bottom bracket? If not, I'd venture to say it's post 1960s.

Neal
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Old 10-02-07, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by nlerner
Does the bike have an oiler hole at the top of the left (non-drive) side of the bottom bracket? If not, I'd venture to say it's post 1960s.

Neal
It won't have one, Neal. The headlugs already pin it down to post '62/63.

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Old 10-02-07, 08:15 PM
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Am I missing something - why don't you just check the date on the S/A 3-speed hub? That would give you an idea of the vintage if it is the original hub.

David L
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Old 10-04-07, 10:23 AM
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Hi there.
Thanks for all the tips. This kind of discussion really represents the word "forum"..
This bike was bought in Portugal, and the only things I can assure as original are the frame, the fork, the front wheel, the brakes, the crankset and front sprocket....I have the original brooks saddle but the leather is being "softened". So the hub hipothesis is not on the table (but thanks anyway). It is a common SA All Wide. I also think, but not sure, that there is not an oil hole on the bottom bracket.
I will check on that number.
Thanks to all of you
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Old 10-06-07, 10:21 AM
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Hi there.
I did not find a serial number on the back of any part of the seat tube (should it be a sticker/decal, or engraved?) I did find something else I had never noticed: On the front part of the seat tube (i.e. facing the front wheel) there seem to be vertical decals spelling "RALEIGH", and beneath, the words "the all steel" and something else I cannot tell, because they are under the black spray paint someone did.. and if I scrape it, the will vanish. Also, something I did not tell you about: the front badge says "The Raleigh, Notingham England" and it is black/gold...
Does this help?
Thanks
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Old 10-06-07, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Theflyingdutch
Hi there.
I did not find a serial number on the back of any part of the seat tube (should it be a sticker/decal, or engraved?) I did find something else I had never noticed: On the front part of the seat tube (i.e. facing the front wheel) there seem to be vertical decals spelling "RALEIGH", and beneath, the words "the all steel" and something else I cannot tell, because they are under the black spray paint someone did.. and if I scrape it, the will vanish. Also, something I did not tell you about: the front badge says "The Raleigh, Notingham England" and it is black/gold...
Does this help?
Thanks
It should be engraved. Take an LED (preferably) penlight and shine it up the back of the seattube between the stays. You should see something to this extent:



As for serial numbers throughout the years, I am slowly compiling a chart at my site, The Headbadge:

https://www.jaysmarine.com/TH_raleigh_serials.html

1960's serial locations have not been added yet (figuring out the serial systems will be next-to-impossible on these), but that will come in good time.

The decal you describe is of what one might find on a 1960's Raleigh here in the States - as yours is most obviously not a U.S.-spec machine, I would not place much weight on this - the models available on your side of the pond most likely used different decals in the '67-'72 period. For that matter, the post-'73 period in other markets then England.

The quote on the seat tube should read "The All Steel Bicycle."

You say the badge is black/gold - that is to say, it has black paint accents on it, and the base of the badge is brass? This started no earlier then the early 1960's - anything from the time period before used stainless badges, and before that ('30s), a brass badge with an offset top rivet.

By any chance, is there a faint serial number in the top of the seat lug?

-Kurt
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Old 10-06-07, 05:05 PM
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Whatever year it is that's a nice bike and it should be a good ride.
I own a 1947 Ladies Raleigh Sport with a coaster rear brake, roller lever front brakes and alloy Dunlop Westwood rims. The saddle is a three spring 'Terry'. The things that mark out a Raleigh as being an older model are such things as oil lubrication points and the boss behind the chainwheel for mounting a full chaincase. Another clue is that the Heron badge will be brass and held on with small pins. That style of fork can be found on immediate postwar period civilian Nottingham Raleighs as it uses all presswork parts and no forgings.
My Raleigh had been brush painted a horrible grotty green, but the previous owner went to an awful lot of trouble to clean it back to the original well worn finish. I use it as my quick-nip-up-the-road-bike and I really enjoy my old Raleigh.

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Old 10-06-07, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Sianelle
Another clue is that the Heron badge will be brass and held on with small pins. That style of fork can be found on immediate postwar period civilian Nottingham Raleighs as it uses all presswork parts and no forgings.
Question - was that badge replaced at one time? A Raleigh dating from '47 up to '61/62 should be fitted with the stainless badge variant (which was also present on the S-22's from 1967-1973).

-Kurt
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Old 10-06-07, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by cudak888
Question - was that badge replaced at one time? A Raleigh dating from '47 up to '61/62 should be fitted with the stainless badge variant (which was also present on the S-22's from 1967-1973).

-Kurt
It looks very much like it's the original badge Kurt and the pins look like they've never been disturbed either. No scratches or marks anywhere to show that it might be a transplant. I've got a slightly later gent's roadster frame that has the stainless steel badge, - so I'm wondering if some of the early 1947 production might've had brass badges before the change over to stainless steel.
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Old 10-07-07, 11:34 AM
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hi
here is a photo of the bike's badge
I really can tell no serial number on the back of the seat tube..[IMG][/IMG]thanks
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Old 10-09-07, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Sianelle
It looks very much like it's the original badge Kurt and the pins look like they've never been disturbed either. No scratches or marks anywhere to show that it might be a transplant. I've got a slightly later gent's roadster frame that has the stainless steel badge, - so I'm wondering if some of the early 1947 production might've had brass badges before the change over to stainless steel.
Must be an idiosyncrasy of the home market, west European, and Aussie-market models (just now noticed you're N.Z.), while the U.S. machines came with the chromed steel badge. One other thing to take note of - I have seen some non-Nottingham production carry the "Nottingham England" lettering at the bottom of the badge, regardless of the fact that it wasn't produced there (Holland and Danish Raleighs are an exception - they do have strikeouts in place of the text). I highly suggest in such cases to look the frame over for the traditional "Made In England" top-tube lettering; if not present, or another location of manufacture is indicated, one cannot go by ANY of the attributes given to the Nottingham machines, as the more intricate details of the tooling used in production (badges, fittings, etc.) may, or in most cases, WILL differ from the Nottingham tooling.

P.S.: I must have not been paying much attention when I posted that earlier - they are not stainless badges, rather, brass with a thin chrome (?) plating on them.


Originally Posted by Theflyingdutch
hi
here is a photo of the bike's badge
I really can tell no serial number on the back of the seat tube.. thanks
All right, that's one of the early '60s (and in the U.S., until '72 on the S-22) badges - chrome with brass underneath (what I screwed up and called "stainless" earlier). Pretty much sticks this machine anywhere from '61-2 into '72.

Can you now check the top of the seat LUG for a serial number?

-Kurt

P.S. #2: In response to your PM'ed question as to the price you paid, 150 Euro comes out to roughly $210/211 U.S.D. Quite frankly, here in the States, it would be considered a severe rip-off in its present state - no chainguard, fenders, and rusted-out rim sidewalls. I do not know the state of prices where you picked it up, although I find it odd that you would be charged more then in the States for a bicycle that I would have thought to be far more common on that side of the pond then here.
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Old 10-09-07, 02:26 PM
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Post 1970s Raleighs produced under licence here in NZ had a tacky aluminium headbadge. Earlier Raleighs that came here were imported from the Nottingham factory and they generally have the chromed brass badge post 1947. I must admit that a good example of the chromed badge does look a lot like stainless steel though. Something I've noticed is that my old Raleigh has the heron chainwheel and the herons have eyes. I have another gents bike that has the later heron chainwheel without eyes; - Let's face it the common Raleigh chainwheel was pretty boring as compared with the other English brands of the time and the heron chainwheel has to be an improvement.

This bike has the 'Made in England' script transfer on the top tube, Deco styled transfers and striping, oversized 26inch Westwood rims, heavyweight roadster mudguards, vinyl topped Brooks saddle with a plastic badge and a 3 speed coaster braked Sturmey Archer hub, - BUT it's not as old as it looks. It's a 1970s bicycle. (Ignore the horrid modern chrome rack btw, the previous owner fitted it and I threw it away as soon as I could )
A trap for young players that, - all that's black and pinstriped is not old
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Old 10-09-07, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Sianelle
^
That photo is a thousand words worth of the differences between the U.S. stuff and that in N.Z.; here in the States, that frameset would be known as the general 28" frameset as used on the rod-brake DL-1 model, but to have it in such a configuration with a coasterbrake, North-Road handlebars, and a complete lack of the rod-brake system is enough to confuse most collectors out there. Doesn't end there either - most collectors both here and in England will think of the DL-1 as being a 28"/635mm wheeled machine - this example has the 26" tire/rim combo as used on examples produced for other markets. Rod stays as opposed to wire stays are, once again, another detail which differs from the U.S. stuff. Is there more? Sure...a U.S. DL-1 would never come with white accents on the frame. Always all-black, no matter what.

That opened and sealed a can of worms pretty quickly.

Incidentally, it's a post '72. Obviously, Raleigh did use their later '73 decals on the N.Z. market machines, for Raleigh didn't use this lettering until early production in 1973.

-Kurt "Sufficiently Confused Yet?" K.
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Old 10-09-07, 05:31 PM
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P.S.: Note the use of a Sir Walter logo on the seattube - in the States, a shorter logo with the Rampar "R" logo was used. As the Rampar name stood for "Raleigh America Parts," the logo was meaningless for other markets, and was subbed with the Sir Walter logo.

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Old 10-09-07, 06:59 PM
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Thanks for running your educated eye over my unusual old Raleigh I really love this bike and right from the moment I saw it I had to have it. Unfortunately it has a twist in the frame which has stopped me from riding it much, but I fully intend to do a careful overhaul and tidy up on this bike once I've finished sorting out one or two of my other bicycles.

By the way I have a Phillips frame that's very similar, but has a Phillips fork as well as those distinctive white accents. Not the best photo sorry, - my ancient digital camera has died.
Single speed Perry coaster hub, 28inch Westwood rims, rough Brooks vinyl topped saddle, no mudguards unfortunately (sigh)
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Last edited by Sianelle; 10-09-07 at 07:03 PM. Reason: forgot to say something
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