End of the road for Shimano Sora, Claris, Tiagra, Alivio, Acera, Altus groupsets
#26
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Then Shimano decided to screw us by introducing a new drivetrain line that was incompatible. They will do it again, just watch.
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#28
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I listed to a podcast a couple years ago with the head of Microshift Sales for North America- it was a really cool interview that I think was part of Nerd Alert, though not sure. Anyways, he addressed the external routed shift cables and said that they cant get around design infringement that would either violate Shimano or SRAM, so they routed the cables externally. I would be curious to know how they got around the obstacles with their 10sp and 11sp groups that route under the tape, but regardless- apparently design limitations wont allow them to route under bar tape for all the 7-10sp Shimano Legacy style shifting.
He talked extensively about Microshift's own product- Advent. Advent and Advent X have made their way to a lot of budget MTB builds and the drop bar Advent X is OEM on even Cannondale Topstone. It is its own system, so it isnt Shimano compatible. I could definitely see them continuing this route- budget, quality, in-house design.
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You do realize that we have been here before, don’t you? Shimano had an entire line that was cross compatible from 6 speed to 9 speed (with a few rare exceptions). I have bicycles that are running 9 speed mountain rear derailers with 9 speed…and even 10 speed…road shifters. I never went to road derailers with mountain shifters but it would not have been impossible.
Then Shimano decided to screw us by introducing a new drivetrain line that was incompatible. They will do it again, just watch.
Then Shimano decided to screw us by introducing a new drivetrain line that was incompatible. They will do it again, just watch.
#30
Newbie
If this ever comes true I will be very sad. I thoroughly enjoy the "clunky" feel of (even very smooth) mechanical shifting :[
#31
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This eliminates the durability benefit of the <11spd setups. Yet, Shimano is planning to offer 9spd and 10spd versions of it. Who do they think will be interested in that?
#32
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Like Cyccommute, I remember the days when any Shimano shifter paired with any derailleur. Good stuff for amateur bike assemblers, because the range of options was so wide.
However, when it became clear that there were better designs available, and at a time when except for the rare low-dollar garage mechanic, people weren't widely mixing systems, so that Shimano had divided strongly into Road and MTB components ... well I don't know why cable-pull rations had to change, but again it was only as Issue to a very, very few people.
Will Shimano change the new system (which once again integrates all of its drive train options)? Most likely, After some number of years, metal gears might become passe, as CF or 3d-printed parts take over the market. Who knows? Who knows what new tech will be developed in the next decade or two which might radically change or just offer significant upgrades to existing drive train options?
A quick web search indicates that Dura Ace was introduced in 1973 and Ultegra in 1987, So ... thirty and fifty years ago. And we are complaining because Shimano is moving on? (Maybe some of us should too?)
And sure, all those systems were updated many times down through the years ... and we all survived. This is just another update.
Chill out, folks. The world is ending, but not because or brifters and cogs.
However, when it became clear that there were better designs available, and at a time when except for the rare low-dollar garage mechanic, people weren't widely mixing systems, so that Shimano had divided strongly into Road and MTB components ... well I don't know why cable-pull rations had to change, but again it was only as Issue to a very, very few people.
Will Shimano change the new system (which once again integrates all of its drive train options)? Most likely, After some number of years, metal gears might become passe, as CF or 3d-printed parts take over the market. Who knows? Who knows what new tech will be developed in the next decade or two which might radically change or just offer significant upgrades to existing drive train options?
A quick web search indicates that Dura Ace was introduced in 1973 and Ultegra in 1987, So ... thirty and fifty years ago. And we are complaining because Shimano is moving on? (Maybe some of us should too?)
And sure, all those systems were updated many times down through the years ... and we all survived. This is just another update.
Chill out, folks. The world is ending, but not because or brifters and cogs.
#33
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Basically the durability problems and expensive chains of 11 speed without the benefit(?) of added gearing.
#34
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Some more news from Shimano:
https://bikerumor.com/new-shimano-hu...ar-affordable/
For the Cues groupsets, Shimano is moving away from cup-and-cone bearings and going to cartridge. Unlike other diehards here though- I have never been a big fan of cup and cone- because your bearing adjustment is ruined the moment you clamp the QR on. Anyways, even Shimano is beginning to see the light and move away from cup and cone. The most interesting design is the QC400. It retains the original Shimano stroke of genius- the outboard bearing location for the DS bearings, and the versatility of the threaded rod axle, while using cartridge bearings. Best of all worlds. Most other cartridge bearing designs currently on the market move the DS bearing inboard, and get away with that with a larger diameter fixed axle which doesn't have the versatility of a threaded axle.
All hope is not lost for the cup-and-cone die-hards though. The lowest end QC300 retains the traditional cup-and-cone. Another encouraging bit of news is that the 7 speed short freehub body continues to live on!!!! So in theory you can still get a brand new 7 speed hub for your 126mm frame
https://bikerumor.com/new-shimano-hu...ar-affordable/
For the Cues groupsets, Shimano is moving away from cup-and-cone bearings and going to cartridge. Unlike other diehards here though- I have never been a big fan of cup and cone- because your bearing adjustment is ruined the moment you clamp the QR on. Anyways, even Shimano is beginning to see the light and move away from cup and cone. The most interesting design is the QC400. It retains the original Shimano stroke of genius- the outboard bearing location for the DS bearings, and the versatility of the threaded rod axle, while using cartridge bearings. Best of all worlds. Most other cartridge bearing designs currently on the market move the DS bearing inboard, and get away with that with a larger diameter fixed axle which doesn't have the versatility of a threaded axle.
All hope is not lost for the cup-and-cone die-hards though. The lowest end QC300 retains the traditional cup-and-cone. Another encouraging bit of news is that the 7 speed short freehub body continues to live on!!!! So in theory you can still get a brand new 7 speed hub for your 126mm frame
Last edited by icemilkcoffee; 03-01-23 at 05:56 PM.
#35
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I'm not sure that I've found Shimano's narrower higher-speed stuff to have any real durability issues compared with their wider stuff.
However, there's always been an implication that the durability and function of the narrower stuff leveraged designs that relied on pricier manufacturing. If they've managed to get around that, and everything is going to use the same spacing and pull ratios, it's not obvious why you'd keep <11-speed groups at all. It's not like a few clicks on a ratchet and a couple of cogs on a consumable item represent a big manufacturing cost difference. I suppose lower-speed groups could get away with a narrower freehub body and wider hub flanges, but introducing a whole bunch of hub standards would seem to violate the whole premise of this thing as well.
Which suggests that either the lower-tier stuff will compromise on functional behavior or durability (not very Shimano-like), or is being artificially restricted to lower cog counts purely for tier differentiation (conceptually annoying).
Also, are they seriously calling this "CUES"?
However, there's always been an implication that the durability and function of the narrower stuff leveraged designs that relied on pricier manufacturing. If they've managed to get around that, and everything is going to use the same spacing and pull ratios, it's not obvious why you'd keep <11-speed groups at all. It's not like a few clicks on a ratchet and a couple of cogs on a consumable item represent a big manufacturing cost difference. I suppose lower-speed groups could get away with a narrower freehub body and wider hub flanges, but introducing a whole bunch of hub standards would seem to violate the whole premise of this thing as well.
Which suggests that either the lower-tier stuff will compromise on functional behavior or durability (not very Shimano-like), or is being artificially restricted to lower cog counts purely for tier differentiation (conceptually annoying).
Also, are they seriously calling this "CUES"?
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I watch a lot of new riders struggle shifting out of one gear. If they are going to make 11 the standard then it might as well be the 11 tooth cog, lol. I'm not sure why they even make a multi speed electric bike. Guess this means the vintage crowd needs to horde some more parts.
#37
Newbie
Honestly I think this will be good. I can't even imagine the sheer number of SKUs on of all the components that cover at least a dozen different groupsets across road and MTB. At the end of the day I think a more focused product line will help keep prices lower and interchangeability high. Most of shimano's components have pretty trivial differences between groupsets anyway. In a perfect world, I don't really see the need to have more than four groupsets per product line.
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Honestly I think this will be good. I can't even imagine the sheer number of SKUs on of all the components that cover at least a dozen different groupsets across road and MTB. At the end of the day I think a more focused product line will help keep prices lower and interchangeability high. Most of shimano's components have pretty trivial differences between groupsets anyway. In a perfect world, I don't really see the need to have more than four groupsets per product line.
#40
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Already been here with Acros and still around with Rotor. It is different from a brake system as it is completely sealed so you should never need to bleed and it eliminates all the issues one could have with tight cable bends. Rotor designed it with the help of Magura who know's hydraulics pretty well and from what I hear it is good stuff.
In terms of CUES good for Shimano, make more affordable but higher quality parts. Some of that low end stuff is bad to pretty bad so improving it would be excellent. If I had a vintage bike I would either stick with my vintage components or modernize just putting lower end components on it just isn't my jam. My XT-M737 rear derailleur is pretty bombproof and it can work with 9 speed stuff and plenty of that available used as needed or just go friction and all good. Plenty of decent modern friction stuff and again plenty of used stuff or NOS as well.
It will take a long time for Shimano to get rid of all their cheaper stuff so it will be around a while but CUES I think is an excellent step forward. It is sort of like Advent is for Microshift and I mean that in a good way. Plus I do think it actually looks pretty good I happened to be on Shimano B2B looking up some stuff and saw a couple cranks and thought wow that actually looks good. Budget stuff doesn't need to look like crap anymore and hopefully if performance is what they are talking then it doesn't need to work like crap either and maybe we can get back to some decent quality long lasting bikes under $1k and that would be excellent.
In terms of when we will see it probably next year. Shimano is screwy right now due to a lot of pandemic related closures and being one of the largest OEM groupset manufacturers. SRAM did really well where Shimano faltered on production.
In terms of CUES good for Shimano, make more affordable but higher quality parts. Some of that low end stuff is bad to pretty bad so improving it would be excellent. If I had a vintage bike I would either stick with my vintage components or modernize just putting lower end components on it just isn't my jam. My XT-M737 rear derailleur is pretty bombproof and it can work with 9 speed stuff and plenty of that available used as needed or just go friction and all good. Plenty of decent modern friction stuff and again plenty of used stuff or NOS as well.
It will take a long time for Shimano to get rid of all their cheaper stuff so it will be around a while but CUES I think is an excellent step forward. It is sort of like Advent is for Microshift and I mean that in a good way. Plus I do think it actually looks pretty good I happened to be on Shimano B2B looking up some stuff and saw a couple cranks and thought wow that actually looks good. Budget stuff doesn't need to look like crap anymore and hopefully if performance is what they are talking then it doesn't need to work like crap either and maybe we can get back to some decent quality long lasting bikes under $1k and that would be excellent.
In terms of when we will see it probably next year. Shimano is screwy right now due to a lot of pandemic related closures and being one of the largest OEM groupset manufacturers. SRAM did really well where Shimano faltered on production.
Last edited by veganbikes; 03-01-23 at 11:28 PM.
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#41
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Bad news for all the die-hards who have hung onto the old 7-10 speed road and 7-9 speed MTB groupsets and enjoyed the interchangeability of these groupsets. Shimano is terminating all these existing 8-10 speed groupsets and replacing them with a unified 'Cues' groupset which uses 11 speed cassette and 11 speed spacing, and new pull ratios. There will also be 9 and 10 speed variants of this Cues lineup- but they will all use the same 11 speed spacing, chain and crankset- just omitting cogs from the 11speed cassette and reducing clicks in the shifters.
https://www.bikeradar.com/news/shimano-cues/
Oh well, there is still the good old Tourney 7 speed groupset- so that will be the last holdout of the righteous.
https://www.bikeradar.com/news/shimano-cues/
Oh well, there is still the good old Tourney 7 speed groupset- so that will be the last holdout of the righteous.
#42
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I read that as Shimano will use a different pull ratio then the old groups used .... while most of the lower groups had been upgraded (int eh latest variant) to 11-speed ratios, as I recall, Tiagra was still out on its own, and older versions of lower groups might have been too. Also, MTB stuff had a different ratio. As I read it Shimano will use a single new ration for all groups of the CUES line ... at once making CUES non-retrofittable, and making it much easier to mix. match and upgrade withing CUES.
Last edited by Maelochs; 03-02-23 at 06:16 AM.
#43
Senior Member
If CUES was to adopt current 11s road pull ratio, then CUES, tiagra 4700, both 11s 105, both 11s ultegra and all GRX would all share the same pull ratio. Seems like a smart move, but who knows. - I still cant imagine shimano would break compatibility between 9s and 10s CUES cassettes and current 9s and 10s cassettes, by altering cog spacing, as suggested in the OP.
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Pity the LBS with a showroom full of bikes 'with the old stuff' and the spring sales season moments away.
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#48
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If by “it’s been nearly a decade” since Shimano caused this incompatibility problem, I fully agree. But since Shimano caused the problem in the first place, what makes you think that they will stay the course for the next 5 to 9 years, much less a 25?
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Where there's a will and possibly a way, people will figure it out. The only Shimano components on this one are the hubs and RD. Despite having the triple/LC RD/big cassette, special attention was paid to the weight of the drivetrain. Shimano fell short to other components in the cost/weight department for what was required.