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Sure, 23mm may not be hot now, but are they dead-dead?

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Sure, 23mm may not be hot now, but are they dead-dead?

Old 09-22-20, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001
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Old 09-22-20, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by SCTinkering
Yeah I switched to a disc fork and got up to a 25 up front on my 2003 Airborne Ti, swapped the rear rim brake to current gen 105 and managed to get a 28 out back, but that was a lot of work for 2mm up front and 5mm out back. The ride is nicer, but was it worth the effort? 🤷‍♀️



(I was already thinking about width, so apologies on the thread highjack) So are the UCI rules the limiting factor? Is there any reason Specialized couldn't design a Tarmac to be aero with 32mm or 38mm tires provided the rims were designed to ideally accommodate them? Where is the tipping point between rolling resistance, weight, aero (in many cases bike has to be designed around a width), ride quality, etc.?
UCI max tire width for CX racing is 33mm (for now... many assume this will change soon). I'm not sure there's a max width for road, so it comes down to aero/rolling resistance and weight.

Specialized could design a Tarmac that fits 38mm, but it's a race bike. There aren't road racing tires available in that size, and currently most racers are only going up to 28mm. A 28mm tire on a frame designed around 38mm would leave large gaps resulting in more aero drag.

I'm sure manufacturers work closely with tire (and wheel) manufacturers to plan for future products, so it's entirely possible that they're all working on aero bikes/wheels designed around larger tire sizes. I'm sure there's a point of diminishing returns on aero, weight and rolling resistance, but it's pretty clear that 23mm is no longer the sweet spot for that. Maybe it's 25mm? Maybe it's 28mm?
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Old 09-22-20, 10:12 AM
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I'm quite happy riding 23s pumped up to 105, but maybe I don't have the same issues everyone else has.
There is a lot of nice fresh tarmac to ride where I live.
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Old 09-22-20, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by mercator
I'm quite happy riding 23s pumped up to 105, but maybe I don't have the same issues everyone else has.
There is a lot of nice fresh tarmac to ride where I live.

Nothing wrong with 23mm. Heck, I remember running 21mm tires on road bikes in my younger days and never had any issues. That said, I don't see any reason why someone would chose anything narrower than a 25mm for a new tire now unless fit is an issue. Comfort aside, there's plenty of data out there showing 25mm tires to be as fast or faster than 23mm.

Pro riders (to my knowledge) are all currently on 25mm and wider. Some are running 26-28mm. They're not doing this for comfort.
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Old 09-22-20, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by msu2001la
UCI max tire width for CX racing is 33mm (for now... many assume this will change soon). I'm not sure there's a max width for road, so it comes down to aero/rolling resistance and weight.


Specialized could design a Tarmac that fits 38mm, but it's a race bike. There aren't road racing tires available in that size, and currently most racers are only going up to 28mm. A 28mm tire on a frame designed around 38mm would leave large gaps resulting in more aero drag.


I'm sure manufacturers work closely with tire (and wheel) manufacturers to plan for future products, so it's entirely possible that they're all working on aero bikes/wheels designed around larger tire sizes. I'm sure there's a point of diminishing returns on aero, weight and rolling resistance, but it's pretty clear that 23mm is no longer the sweet spot for that. Maybe it's 25mm? Maybe it's 28mm?

Yes, that's where I suspect things are going. The status quo isn't 23 anymore, but I suspect that it's those of us out on the road that will be testing ideas around rim & tire width before pros adopt it. Well that is unless someone has a "EUREKA!" moment that changes things so drastically that it gives a compelling competitive advantage.
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Old 09-22-20, 11:37 AM
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One aspect often forgotten is that larger tires hold a larger volume of air so will resist deflection less at the same pressure. The same amount of deflection has to compress the air in the tire less. The amount of air in the tire, whether tubed or tubeless depends on the rim as much as the tire, so the rim significantly impacts both your riding pressure and "feel". Modern TLRs seem from my small sample to be wide and shallow.
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Old 09-22-20, 11:43 AM
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Does anyone else feel like the jump from 23 to 25 feels like a pretty big difference, while tires in the 25-28 range feel pretty similar, then the jump from 28 to 32 feels huge again. Is that just me?
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Old 09-22-20, 12:37 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001
As a shop - 23's are like toxic waste. I don't stock any except for super cheap tires because they just don't move. Anyone actually riding them tends to be on the cheaper side (maybe that's why they're riding an older bike as well ) so they'll just buy what they need online anyway. If pressed I can easily source 23's in just about any major tire. This will not always be the case.
This explains why GP5000s on Amazon are $10 more for a pair of 28s than 23s.

23s will be around a long time. Has anybody seen a pair of 20s anywhere any time recently, though?
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Old 09-22-20, 12:50 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by kingston
Does anyone else feel like the jump from 23 to 25 feels like a pretty big difference, while tires in the 25-28 range feel pretty similar, then the jump from 28 to 32 feels huge again. Is that just me?
I do. I tried using a 23 front to avoid fender rub on the road bike I used for commuting. Had one too many scares with the tire riding into pavement grooves (some of the worst pavement in the city are on the parts of the only reasonable route to work with no alternatives), decided I'd rather live with fender rub than go down for something stupid like that. Never had any squirrelly moments on 25s, even inadvertently ridden gravel and single track on them once when my riding party followed some bad Garmin directions.

With the prospect of wanting to go fast while maximizing control during wet conditions on my commute, I retired that bike and replaced it with a CX bike that can easily take 32mm GP5k with fenders. Coming from riding mostly 25-28 (albeit blown out wider depending on rim) to those GP5ks was immensely confidence-inspiring. Really glad Continental offers GP5ks in 32mm.
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Old 09-22-20, 01:17 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Leinster
This explains why GP5000s on Amazon are $10 more for a pair of 28s than 23s.

23s will be around a long time. Has anybody seen a pair of 20s anywhere any time recently, though?
You can see them on my track bike. They are Conti Supersonic 20's but they are so thin and fragile I won't even roll them on tarmac, I carry them into the Velodrome.
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Old 09-22-20, 01:50 PM
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I still run Conti GP 4000 and 5000 with 23mm. I think the next tire I get will be a 25 but I really have no issue with 23's. The road seems fine to me and I am strict road cyclist I don't wander into gravel and avoid chip-seal roads they just chipped. The bike industry changes things so much and it frustrates me because some things are good but others are not. The wider tire I can see and the pro's are doing it so not going to slow someone down. 23 mm tires will be around for a long time but it will be just mean more looking and searching. The same thing can be said with rim brakes and threaded bottom brackets. I don't buy all the changes and so customer manufactures get my bike business because they still have BSA threaded BB.
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Old 09-22-20, 03:11 PM
  #37  
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No....23s are not "hot."
Yes....they are soon to be history.
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Old 09-22-20, 03:30 PM
  #38  
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What if sealant technology continues to improve. Let's say in a few years, there is a lovely sealant that stays wet until needed, and a few teaspoons will do it. Basically what we have now, just better, more reliable, etc.

You could argue that this would only strengthen the adoption of tubeless rims for road riders. But tubeless rims have drawbacks -- the worst among them, in my opinion, is fragility. It's far easier to crack a bead. And when tubeless tires blowout, it can be dangerous. Plus, they are a tiny bit heavier.

So, maybe the next gen sealant gets people on what's been the best road tire all along: the tubular. The main knock against the tubular is that they are a hassle when they flat. Take that away, why not give them a shot? Just about every Tour pro chooses them.

If that happens, tire sizes could shrink a size again. A 23 mm tubular is common and absorbs bumps as well, if not far better, than any 25 mm clincher.

Really just a thought exercise. Anything can happen. A global collapse could also cause all kinds of problems and we could be running narrower tires because of latex shortages or some awful thing. Who knows.
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Old 09-22-20, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by kingston
Does anyone else feel like the jump from 23 to 25 feels like a pretty big difference, while tires in the 25-28 range feel pretty similar, then the jump from 28 to 32 feels huge again. Is that just me?
Nope.

Tons of that has to do with the pressure ranges available with more air volume and what pressures you are riding at though. Odds are you were running your 23's too high...or at least drastically higher than the same relative response for the 25 air volume.
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Old 09-22-20, 05:17 PM
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When it became widely known there was a benefit to running 25s instead of 23s, it seemed like a lot of folks just figured 'wider is better' and ignored the fact there's a downside to hanging huge lumps of rubber off your wheels.

I'm pretty sure the penny will drop in the next few years, and hardly any tarmac bikes will be on rubber over 28 again. I also predict this will coincide with widespread adoption of the one size smaller on the front idea. 23/25 will be more or less as common as 25/28, so 23s are here to stay IMO.
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Old 09-22-20, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by ljsense
What if sealant technology continues to improve. Let's say in a few years, there is a lovely sealant that stays wet until needed, and a few teaspoons will do it. Basically what we have now, just better, more reliable, etc.

You could argue that this would only strengthen the adoption of tubeless rims for road riders. But tubeless rims have drawbacks -- the worst among them, in my opinion, is fragility. It's far easier to crack a bead. And when tubeless tires blowout, it can be dangerous. Plus, they are a tiny bit heavier.

So, maybe the next gen sealant gets people on what's been the best road tire all along: the tubular. The main knock against the tubular is that they are a hassle when they flat. Take that away, why not give them a shot? Just about every Tour pro chooses them.

If that happens, tire sizes could shrink a size again. A 23 mm tubular is common and absorbs bumps as well, if not far better, than any 25 mm clincher.

Really just a thought exercise. Anything can happen. A global collapse could also cause all kinds of problems and we could be running narrower tires because of latex shortages or some awful thing. Who knows.
Pretty sure every major rim that I currently build with or sell is tubeless already. We don't have to wait for that to happen. It's done. Kind of like disc brakes.

I have never noticed a single issue being systemic with tubeless rims. They do not cause the "bead" (believe you meant hook) to crack. If there is a rim out there having problems that's on the manufacturer. Generally we can get rim shapes that are tubeless within a gram or 2 of a non-tubeless rim. The extra shape that is added to the rim bed actually stiffens up the section greatly.

No the drawback to tubeless rims is that they are so tight that it's taking a lot of people that used to be able to change their own tires and making them customers because they can't figure out how to do it or have enough hand strength to get it done.

Another drawback is that the days of cloth rim tape are gone. Even is you are running with tubes you almost always need something thinner than a rim strip. As a result every single wheel we ship out has "tubeless" tape on it as a rim strip. Add a valve and sealant and you're tubeless or just put a tube in it.

As for tubular....meh. I have fought that battle. Trying to explain the experience of riding a sublime tubular on a super light and stiff bike to today's crowd of disc brakes and tubeless is wasting your breath. It's like all those mtb guys from the 90's finally re-invaded road cycling and are trying to completely kill it this time.

As for tubular on road I have glued up a ton of Donnelly LGG tubulars. They are a tubeless constructed tubular so that even though they function as a tubular when you do get a flat you can throw tubeless sealant in them and usually prolong their life by a long time.
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Old 09-22-20, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Kimmo
When it became widely known there was a benefit to running 25s instead of 23s, it seemed like a lot of folks just figured 'wider is better' and ignored the fact there's a downside to hanging huge lumps of rubber off your wheels.

I'm pretty sure the penny will drop in the next few years, and hardly any tarmac bikes will be on rubber over 28 again. I also predict this will coincide with widespread adoption of the one size smaller on the front idea. 23/25 will be more or less as common as 25/28, so 23s are here to stay IMO.
It will all reverse course. Just a matter of time.

Nowadays I get customers that react with disbelief when I tell them it's OK to run their 30mm tires on the wheels they bought from me close to a decade ago.
"But they're only 23mm wide?!"
"Yeah...and we used to race cyclocross on 34mm tires mounted to 19mm wide rims. You'll be fine."

Ahhh...I remember when we would debate on this forum about the "benefit" of "wide" rims....when we were regarding 23mm rims as wide. At the end of the day no one is really going any faster and the riding and racing is still just as hard. It's just bikes guys...enjoy the ride.
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Old 09-22-20, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001
As for tubular....meh. I have fought that battle. Trying to explain the experience of riding a sublime tubular on a super light and stiff bike to today's crowd of disc brakes and tubeless is wasting your breath. It's like all those mtb guys from the 90's finally re-invaded road cycling and are trying to completely kill it this time.
The truth will out, sooner or later.

As for tubular on road I have glued up a ton of Donnelly LGG tubulars. They are a tubeless constructed tubular so that even though they function as a tubular when you do get a flat you can throw tubeless sealant in them and usually prolong their life by a long time.
This isn't something that works with standard tubulars? I haven't used them, until recently, since the 90s, and I'm dreading my first flat, but was hopeful I could just squirt a bit of sealant in when it happens. It occurred to me the sealant mightn't work unless it was already in the tyre though... And I wonder if the latex tubes play well with it...
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Old 09-22-20, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Kimmo
The truth will out, sooner or later.


This isn't something that works with standard tubulars? I haven't used them, until recently, since the 90s, and I'm dreading my first flat, but was hopeful I could just squirt a bit of sealant in when it happens. It occurred to me the sealant mightn't work unless it was already in the tyre though... And I wonder if the latex tubes play well with it...
Some sealants don't work well in the innertube. I haven't seen a lot of luck getting flats to seal with sealant when there's a tube. I have seen it happen but usually it jest ends up spewing sealant everywhere ( cotton sidewalls aren't sealant so the sealant just leaks out the side as soon as it's through the hole in the tube.
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Old 09-22-20, 05:57 PM
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You can still buy 27" tires. Even if 23mm never comes back into favor with major bike brands, there will be a market for a long time. You just won't have so many options.

I just bought a brand new square taper crankset and BB for a brand new frame with a traditional English BB shell. There is always a trailing market.
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Old 09-22-20, 07:07 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001

As for tubular on road I have glued up a ton of Donnelly LGG tubulars. They are a tubeless constructed tubular so that even though they function as a tubular when you do get a flat you can throw tubeless sealant in them and usually prolong their life by a long time.
How is that different from a regular tubular with a removable valve core?

In the last few years I've added sealant to and saved a Zipp Tangente (2x), and two different Vittoria Corsas, though they all just had little tiny punctures in the middle of the threads.

Edit: nevermind. Answered above.
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Old 09-22-20, 07:09 PM
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I ride 23 Continentals on 25mm rims. Matches up nicely. Have no plans to ride 25s anytime soon. Would probably necessitate a bike and wheel change before that happened.
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Old 09-22-20, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001
Nope.

Tons of that has to do with the pressure ranges available with more air volume and what pressures you are riding at though. Odds are you were running your 23's too high...or at least drastically higher than the same relative response for the 25 air volume.
Besides my experience with 23s being easily caught in bad pavement grooves, I also had more snake bites running them (I'm bad at bunny hopping) -- 23s are also significantly more annoying to repair a flat roadside. As a lighter rider, I learned that suggested PSIs were all way too low to ride 23s, so I had to pump them up until they were much, much, much firmer than any higher volume tire. That made a terrible combo with the bone-jarring metal bridge joints along my commute, a trail feature of the new bike path linking Seattle to the Eastside that caused so many complaints that the DOT actually did something about them and had them replaced. Even with the horrible old design, I was confident enough to ride IAB on 25mm+ tires over them. 23s? No way.
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Old 09-23-20, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by downtube42
You can still buy 27" tires. Even if 23mm never comes back into favor with major bike brands, there will be a market for a long time. You just won't have so many options.

I just bought a brand new square taper crankset and BB for a brand new frame with a traditional English BB shell. There is always a trailing market.
"Umm actually"...
It has become extremely difficult to buy high quality performance 27" tires. So much so I have had to help a few really high end older bikes convert to 700c. Most older Campy brakes had the length to convert which makes it easier. Reason for conversion: no good tires in 27".

Like square taper BB's - there will always be a market but the level of the stuff offered will slowly drop until it... meh.

Just bought 2x 27" cross style tires for a Schwinn road bike to flat bar conversion from the 90's. Took forever to find in stock. Kenda and a whopping $10. Should last a year or two before dry rotting out.
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Old 09-23-20, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by surak
Besides my experience with 23s being easily caught in bad pavement grooves, I also had more snake bites running them (I'm bad at bunny hopping) -- 23s are also significantly more annoying to repair a flat roadside. As a lighter rider, I learned that suggested PSIs were all way too low to ride 23s, so I had to pump them up until they were much, much, much firmer than any higher volume tire. That made a terrible combo with the bone-jarring metal bridge joints along my commute, a trail feature of the new bike path linking Seattle to the Eastside that caused so many complaints that the DOT actually did something about them and had them replaced. Even with the horrible old design, I was confident enough to ride IAB on 25mm+ tires over them. 23s? No way.
It's all relative. Starting around 2011 we used to have a road race here that involved about 30%-40% gravel. At the time the tech recommendation was "maybe think about putting on 25's if you have them and can find them and they can fit".

The same race today would have people putting on 36's.

It's 2mm. I would venture a guess that it wasn't actually as much of a difference as you think it was. Pressure and tire compound make a larger difference.
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