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Impact of strength training

Old 02-03-21, 05:09 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy

Almost universally "heavy" strength training is recommended. IME it doesn't particularly matter as long as the final set is done to near failure. Heavy is way quicker though. There are many studies showing that taking it easy in the gym doesn't do anything, duh.
I disagree with this whole idea that the only way to make progress is to train to failure....Not training to failure and stopping long before failure occurs doesn't mean that the person is taking it easy. You can have a very intense productive workout without even coming close to failure.
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Old 02-03-21, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by wolfchild
Why don't you post your opinions or experiences about strength training ??….Me personally I think that that 90% of the people who go to gyms and lift weights are doing it wrong, wasting their time and just punishing their bodies with useless exercises. Most gym goers are only fit in the gym and the exercises that they are doing have no carry over to real life outside the gym.
I couldn't agree more with you. I am a former personal trainer possessing a high level of knowledge regarding hypertrophic stimulation of every muscle in your body whilst balancing cardio vascular endurance with outright muscular strength - for as long as you are alive. That means without destroying your cardiovascular system as well as joints in the process. There is only one way to achieve a proper balance in training. This is why i was absolutely horrified to read someone saying that your form is not much of a concern during training . Horrifying. I can't imagine what sort of life that might lead to.

Some of my main points:

-Your diet is always the place to start. Avoid highly processed foods like basic rice pasta bread, the cheap stuff. Do not eat sugar. Avoid processed dairy in particular. Do not eat or drink quickly. Avoid salt. Do not skip breakfast or eat at night. You will adapt and adhere to a normal routine one way or another. use your reaaons for motivation as the foundation and expand.

- You are not supposed to punish your body to see results. That means no heavy weights, most of the time, at least not when you have no idea what on earth you are doing. build a foundation which works best for you, and your body structure.

- next step, is to incorporate resistance bands and calisthenics. When used properly, you work naturally with your muscle to achieve strong isometric contractions, which accelerate both hypertrophic stimulus and strength simultaneously. This greatly reduces overall cardio, and muscle fatigue, which usually occurs due to excessive lactic acid build up in a muscle being pushed past its comfort zone.

- whats worse? Under or over training? Avoid both scenarios at all cost.

- discipline is the gateway to achievement. Achievement teaches you that success is only a work in progress. Learn your genetics. Stay focused. Find what works for you.

- focus on activating muscles isometrically and building a mind muscle connection. Training for "strength" when you have no idea what you're doing will only slow progress.

Lifting light for high reps, or heavy for low reps has no significant bearing on how much hypertrophy or strength gains you achieve. They both correlate, but only to a certain extent.

-think of hypertrophy as being muscle size and mass, the pump, blood filled muscles. A strong muscle doesn't need to be large, and vice versa.

- hypertrophy is essentially, mind muscle connection x the duration x intensity of the amount of tension being placed on the muscle.

- only once you build your nervous system, cardio vascular system to a reasonable standard, are you ready to "train for strength."

-until then, save your joints, and your entire health. Find a balanced program. Every muscle needs to be trained.

- the goal is to see as much results as possible, while being as efficient as possible. My days of punishing my muscles to their limit, day in day out, zero days off for more than a year straight takes a toll. Overtraining is a real thing. Direct your energy to maximizing results.

if anyone needs a workout routine, let me know.
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Old 02-03-21, 05:28 PM
  #28  
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Here is an article from our own BF Track Racing forum by the Australian National Team strength coach. It is about track sprinting and strength training. https://www.bikeforums.net/track-cyc...ling-team.html. The article is older but the concepts are still valid. And there are some ideas about which exercises work for building strength on the bike. I like his high speed photography for determining the correct set up on the leg press and throwing the sled. I tried the throw the sled. Uh, it is not so easy.

Here is the one paragraph he had on enduro trackies who were also road racers.

Weight training for enduros - the same strategies apply but maximal strength
and power are less critical. All endurance riding, even the bunch sprint at
the end, is really submaximal. A little bit of gym regularly helps to
maintain the structural integrity of the body, prevent imbalances and
prepare you for crashes, but the real gains come on the road. Racing is the
best training. All our best track enduros race on the road in Europe. They
come together for camps to touch up their track skills, but all of that was
learnt as juniors and in domestic track racing on the way up. For strength
endurance on the bike, ride up hills in the saddle on bigger gears. That was
the only strength work out team pursuit did for the last three years and
they won everything there was to win with a bucket load of world records to
boot. Incidentally, they are also the fastest starters."
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Old 02-03-21, 05:32 PM
  #29  
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^ i can agree to that only with an extent.

Using road racing with your inheritly flawed poor baxk posture as the basis for all your training has little to do with overall fitness oriented balance

Shape your bodies posture to be stronger, more like what its supposed to look like first. They got that right for sure.
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Old 02-03-21, 05:34 PM
  #30  
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Sometimes you should train to failure. Usually it isn't necessary. Its about maximizing form and muscle tension, not"training for strength" and "to failure"

This is what I call a backwards approach.

Your muscles only need to lift as heavy as possible, with the correct form, to failure, like 3% of the time.
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Old 02-03-21, 07:40 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild
I disagree with this whole idea that the only way to make progress is to train to failure....Not training to failure and stopping long before failure occurs doesn't mean that the person is taking it easy. You can have a very intense productive workout without even coming close to failure.
Well, that's not what the science says. Note that at least one of the studies I posted said they had spotters to make sure that the subject worked as hard as possible. Every big guy in the gym has a spotter if they are trying to make gains. The explanation for going to near failure, i.e. you know you won't be able to do another rep, is that only then do you get full fiber recruitment. Our bodies are very smart and know not to work any harder than they are forced to work. Thus it's necessary to work at one's limit.

There are studies which have two groups of subjects, one of which works to failure or near failure and one which does not. The one which does not does not get the gains in cycling performance which the failure group gets. In fact there are many studies out there which show no gains in cycling performance from strength training. If one reads these studies, they fall into two groups:
1) the workouts are simply ineffective. For example plyometrics, explosive moves, simply doesn't work. That's backwards from what one would expect: that moving very quickly, like pedals move, would create the most performance gains. But it doesn't.
2) the weights used are insufficient to create a training response greater than the training response obtained from simply pushing hard on the pedals.

If you find studies which contradict the above, please post them! Anecdotes don't count. Even when I do sets of 30, I make sure that I can't do more than say 28 on the last set. Yes, that's an anecdote, but if you look around, there are studies out there which show that hypertrophy does not depend on any particular number of reps per set. It's just that fewer reps take less time and imposes a smaller training load. Sure you get tired from doing lots of reps and not to failure, but tired isn't a sign of progress, just a sign of being tired. Do enough of that and your endurance for that exercise increases, but your1RM, not so much. It's the 1RM increase that improves cycling performance. I understand that's not what one might expect.

All that said, it is true that working to near failure is not the only way to make progress. To a great extent, if you work at something, you'll make progress, doesn't really matter that much what that is. However when studies look at riders who are already highly trained, doing more of that isn't an option. They already are doing as much of that as they can. Eventually, one comes up against what seems to be one's natural limit. So then what? Been there. One trains smarter.
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Old 02-04-21, 02:10 PM
  #32  
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So based on this thread I changed my plan, one session a week this month will now be (virtually) riding uphill. Started today. Not bad I have to say, I am at a power that I was not til beginning/mid April last year. However, I have never ridden up this hill as much out of the saddle as I did today. Especially towards the end where I usually just hold on hoping I paced it just right, I was actually able to stand for extended periods of time. This also pushed my HR up, but nowhere near the 170s where it was last year. All the while the biggest fight was against my burning legs.

So yes, I will train the legs by doing more grinding uphill (well trainer resistance, I do not have the whatever it is called thing that raises your bike at the front to mimic actual uphill), but I do feel confirmed that right now it is my legs that are holding me back. Incidentally, I checked what kind of rides I did at the beginning of the year last year and turns out I did do a lot of uphill at the start.
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Old 02-04-21, 04:54 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Hermes
Here is an article from our own BF Track Racing forum by the Australian National Team strength coach. It is about track sprinting and strength training. https://www.bikeforums.net/track-cyc...ling-team.html. The article is older but the concepts are still valid. And there are some ideas about which exercises work for building strength on the bike. I like his high speed photography for determining the correct set up on the leg press and throwing the sled. I tried the throw the sled. Uh, it is not so easy.

Here is the one paragraph he had on enduro trackies who were also road racers.

Weight training for enduros - the same strategies apply but maximal strength
and power are less critical. All endurance riding, even the bunch sprint at
the end, is really submaximal. A little bit of gym regularly helps to
maintain the structural integrity of the body, prevent imbalances and
prepare you for crashes, but the real gains come on the road. Racing is the
best training. All our best track enduros race on the road in Europe. They
come together for camps to touch up their track skills, but all of that was
learnt as juniors and in domestic track racing on the way up. For strength
endurance on the bike, ride up hills in the saddle on bigger gears. That was
the only strength work out team pursuit did for the last three years and
they won everything there was to win with a bucket load of world records to
boot. Incidentally, they are also the fastest starters."
Yes, that's a good read, but it doesn't google. Nada. I'd want to see the original article, for one thing because I'd like to know how old it is. I like science, and it's always changing or it wouldn't be science. I've done a lot of that for many years and still do it. But.

Google "track cyclist sprinters weight training". As it is said (now), track sprinters are weight lifters who sometimes ride bikes. And then there's Robert Förstemann:
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Old 02-04-21, 11:50 PM
  #34  
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A bit more . . .

In track cycling, Robert is old news. This is what's going on currently in British track cycling: https://www.coachmag.co.uk/leg-worko...rains-his-legs

This is the science behind what he does: https://journals.lww.com/nsca-scj/fu...yclists.8.aspx

"Keys To Effective Track Cycling Training:" https://tailwind-coaching.com/2017/0...ling-training/

Same thing works for road cycling: just cut the strength down to 2 X 1 hour/week and ride lots, especially "see hill, ride up it."
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Old 02-05-21, 12:34 AM
  #35  
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My focus is endurance cycling - randonneuring. Up to 20 hours on the bike, sometimes several days in a row. My opinion is that while my primary power may be best developed on the bike, there are other muscle groups that benefit from strength training. Neck, core, hands, at least. While cycling uses those muscles, I don't think it works them to most effectively develop all day strength. I can only do so many 20 hour rides a year, and I don't think short and even intense rides strengthen those non-primary muscles as effectively as resistance training would.

For pure leg strength, specifically for short bursts of power like steep climbs, I tend to think resistance training is worthwhile. Ideally that might be possible on the road, but the realities of the road in most place means traffic, debris, obstacles, navigation, etc, whereas in the gym you can focus purely on the strengthening activity. I've had many a hill repeat session interrupted by a cluster of cars, but never a set of leg extensions. Clearly if you're a cyclist it's necessary to learn how to deal with those road situations while delivering power, but sometimes they are not conducive to developing power.

However, IMO saddle time cannot be replaced.
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Old 02-05-21, 02:28 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by cubewheels
They're called planks of wood!

Their purpose of the incline is to move your body weight backwards, so you can set even higher resistance on trainer and still be able to push the pedals down with your body weight - better training for strength.

You'll notice the steeper you make an incline on the trainer, the higher you can set resistance on the trainer and still able to push the pedals down with your weight. At some point, it gets incredibly difficult which is a good thing for on the bike/trainer strength training.
Don't have those, I do have a little stool that should just about fit the front wheel and would raise it a substantial amount. I can give that a try.

And I am not sure about the resistance needing to be higher, my trainer definitely does 10% gradient well enough, I was in the lowest gear it has at some point (I believe a 28 at the back, my cassette is 32).
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Old 02-05-21, 08:09 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by cubewheels
"Resistance Training" is essentially strength training. But only works on the bike/trainer if you're encountering large amount of resistance at the pedals.

For example, the gear ratio I use when strength training on the real bike at 10% gradient is 50t ring and 22t cog both sitted and standing intervals. My bike weighs 40 lbs with one water bottle. I did not put any additional weight on it, it's just heavy! Eventually, I plan on doing 50-20 next weekend.

I supplement on-the-bike strength training with weight training. Leg and core exercises with dumbbells.
50-22 up 10%?

Monstrous!
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Old 02-05-21, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Moisture
First off, judging how much you can lift is not an accurate representation of how strong you have become over time. Its more about how you lift the weight, not how much.

What you explain sounds mostly like a factory of recovery. You build muscle when you rest. It is largely a factor of your diet. Not just calories in calories out, but how often you eat, how much at a time, obviously what you eat, when you eat, and most important how fast you eat (and drink, of course) your stomach acid will only break down food properly if yojr saliva has broken down the food in your mouth sufficiently first. So eat tiny mouthfuls first, very slowly. You are supposed to only swallow your drinks once it is warm inside your mouth and sufficiently mixed with saliva.

Also, taking a very hot shower and spraying directly on your entire body, one group at a time is fantastic for recovery. I gradually increase the temperature until it is just bearable. Heat does wonders for your muscles and blood flow. I suggest also trying those bristle brushes in a circular motion on your skin. Not only does it remove dry skin, but its also very good for blood circulation.

Try to wake up earlier in the mornings, and make sure you go to bed on time. Don't look at screens before bed. Remember that your brain is also a muscle and must be trained accordingly. Read books and study.

Also, what sort of training specifically do you do? I use resistance bands. They are super effective. I make sure to slow down the eccentric portion of each movement and maximize muscle tension. I am also a big fan of isometric excersises.

How often do you workout? If you feel drained of energy, don't work out. Just rest.
There's been a lot of silly stuff posted in this thread, but this is by far the worst.
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Old 02-05-21, 10:54 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by OBoile
There's been a lot of silly stuff posted in this thread.
At times the training and nutrition forum are inundated by utter nonsense.

The last couple of months have had a lot of it.
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Old 02-05-21, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval
At times the training and nutrition forum are inundated by utter nonsense.

The last couple of months have had a lot of it.
more than that, remember that one guy with his stupid interval "plan" and saying apps like trainerroad have random intervals? fortunately he faded into the abyss because no one here or on slowtwitch were giving him the time of day. we definitely need guardians against bad bike advice!
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Old 02-05-21, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by hubcyclist
more than that, remember that one guy with his stupid interval "plan" and saying apps like trainerroad have random intervals? fortunately he faded into the abyss because no one here or on slowtwitch were giving him the time of day. we definitely need guardians against bad bike advice!
fastrthanu or something like that?

Yesssssss.
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Old 02-05-21, 08:35 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by cubewheels
Some of the riders who train alongside me at the same hill, run even harder gears at 50-20! I am almost at the limit of my strength with 50-22. I hope to get stronger to get to 50-20 and actually sustain it!

It's really useful to have strong legs when going up long and very steep climbs like those >20% gradients! Just don't over-do it as you don't want to have extra muscle weight you probably won't be using on the bike, they'll just slow you down on climbs.
Gaining weight from strength work is a function of caloric intake, not how much work you're doing. I had a period a couple years ago when I increased my strength work and protein intake, but lost a little weight while gaining strength. I traded in a little fat for muscle and also lost a little. If you're pushing it, just make sure you're getting enough protein to repair the damage.
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Old 02-05-21, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by ZHVelo
50-22 up 10%?

Monstrous!
A financial analyst I once worked with said, "When I see numbers, I get out my calculator." This one took several calculators.
First we look at possible low cadences to see what he might have used. Back when I organized a fixed and SS group ride series, there was a 8%-10% hill we'd climb fairly often. I distinctly remember climbing the 10% section at 35 cadence, seated, in my 42 X 19. So I looked at 40 cadence:
https://www.bikecalc.com/speed_at_cadence
OK, so then we have a speed in the 50 X 22 at 40 cadence = 7.1 mph.
Next we look at power required on a 10% grade with heavy tires, a 40# bike and 125# rider to get 7.1 mph. It's 260w.
If he's only turning 35 cadence like I was, it's 225w.
Bicycle Speed (Velocity) And Power Calculator

Do I think this rider can put out 225w-260w for short periods? Yes. I mean really, this is not monstrous, just hard.
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Old 02-06-21, 10:55 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
A financial analyst I once worked with said, "When I see numbers, I get out my calculator." This one took several calculators.
First we look at possible low cadences to see what he might have used. Back when I organized a fixed and SS group ride series, there was a 8%-10% hill we'd climb fairly often. I distinctly remember climbing the 10% section at 35 cadence, seated, in my 42 X 19. So I looked at 40 cadence:
https://www.bikecalc.com/speed_at_cadence
OK, so then we have a speed in the 50 X 22 at 40 cadence = 7.1 mph.
Next we look at power required on a 10% grade with heavy tires, a 40# bike and 125# rider to get 7.1 mph. It's 260w.
If he's only turning 35 cadence like I was, it's 225w.
Bicycle Speed (Velocity) And Power Calculator

Do I think this rider can put out 225w-260w for short periods? Yes. I mean really, this is not monstrous, just hard.
Sorry but that was a lot of work for nothing. I didn't mean his effort was monstrous, I meant his gearing choice for that gradient.
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Old 02-06-21, 11:06 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
Yes. I mean really, this is not monstrous, just hard.
And pointless.

High cadence with high power is not only more efficient, but is also more effective and specific.
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Old 02-06-21, 11:23 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by ZHVelo
Sorry but that was a lot of work for nothing. I didn't mean his effort was monstrous, I meant his gearing choice for that gradient.
I have a personal interest in all things cycling, so not at all for nothing. I learned a little more. I'm a sucker for a little research project. More knowledge is better than less even if no one else cares. Only took a few minutes.
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Old 02-06-21, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval
At times the training and nutrition forum are inundated by utter nonsense.

The last couple of months have had a lot of it.
These things happen. It's probably wise for Rubiksoval to just turn around and leave those threads where he finds nonsense run amok. I mean, what can he do to change it? Why, just why persist and risk getting into trouble? Best to save oneself the angst and just find threads one likes better.
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Old 02-06-21, 12:33 PM
  #48  
rubiksoval
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It's not angst, BillyD. It's intrigue!

Posters come and go, but ridiculous assertions about training and racing are always en vogue.



Besides, at some point this needs to be upheld to at least a minimum degree.

FORUM RULES

Intelligence

We’re a community with quality standards and expect our members will make a sincere effort to contribute their thoughts on interesting subjects in a meaningful and respectful manner.

But if you do post, we expect that you’ll be respectful of the time of others by posting meaningfully.

Last edited by rubiksoval; 02-06-21 at 12:36 PM.
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Old 02-06-21, 02:11 PM
  #49  
ZHVelo
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One man's garbage is another man's treasure.

One man's meaningful is another man's hogwash.
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Old 02-06-21, 02:20 PM
  #50  
BillyD
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Uh huh, but that’s not your job to judge, that’s our job. That’s only what you consider a loophole.

Now, you can play with fire if you want, but don’t cry and make excuses when you get burnt.

And while you’re reading the rules please consider the section on high maintenance, not just you but a couple of your like-minded pals too. You see, we’re not paid for this, and once we’ve had enough of folks intruding on our personal time, then we’ve had enough. Capishe? And Siu has an even shorter fuse than I do. Much shorter.

You fellas . . . play at your own risk.

So I’m through talking for now, but I’m not going to close the thread. Rubiksoval, Shelbyfv and OBoile please leave the thread. Do not post further in this thread. Contact me by PM if you have any further comment. Thank you for your cooperation.
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Where else but the internet can a bunch of cyclists go and be the tough guy? - - jdon
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