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bonk vs fatigue

Old 07-08-21, 07:03 AM
  #151  
burnthesheep
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62
If you are talking about a dinky 2-3 hour ride, why bother eating.
Most amateur riders, including when you were a Cat 3, don't have the engine built that they can cruise at a solid power for hours while burning mostly fat.

Most amateur folks with mortal ftp's most often ride their 2-3 hour rides in a state in which they're burning more carb than they think. They're not trained like a pro to burn a really high % of fat on a Z2 ride.

And most folks are on low enough volume that they can't ride at a low enough level in Z2 to burn more fat.

The closest folks get to this is long course triathletes. That lower zone adaptation is the name of the game. So, they could probably do it. Then again, the training volume just for the bike leg for a middle pack triathlete is equal or more likely than for a middling bike racer. Simply due to the nature of needing to be able to ride in Z2 for 4.5 to 5 or 6 hours nonstop then still go run. You need enough low intensity hours in the saddle.

And I can see a little of the distance riding elitism coming out, "dinky little 2-3 hour ride". Most any distance can be grueling depending on how it is approached.
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Old 07-08-21, 07:38 AM
  #152  
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62
It sounds like you are much stronger than me. I am just a randonneur but I have done TABR and other long distance stuff. I used to race Cat 3 when I was younger. I have never really found good studies on long rides. For running, I like Tim Noakes.

I did a 400km brevet in just over 13 hours and ate an average of 150 calories per hour and a little less per hour for 600K in under 24 hours.

It has been my observation that randonneurs who try to eat as much as you suggest end up with nausea and/or puking. I think hyponatremia is at least as common as dehydration and far more damaging. Probably a better place for information on eating and drinking on long events would come from ultra marathoners in the mountains.

If you are talking about a dinky 2-3 hour ride, why bother eating.
I’m talking about the far more common 100 mile GF/Sportive events. Not many people I know ride 400 km non-stop events. The pace would obviously be slower and therefore require a different nutritional strategy. I’m riding 100 mile events in Z2 and Z3, with plenty of surges and climbs at threshold or beyond. 5 to 8 hours in the saddle depending on the course.

I’m not that strong either. I usually finish in the top 20-30%. Respectable yes, but certainly no medals! My average power over 6-7 hours is around 200W and I’m 75-80 kg depending on target event. FTP now around 300W at age 53. In my younger days I was pushing maybe 350W.
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Old 07-08-21, 08:28 AM
  #153  
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep
Most amateur riders, including when you were a Cat 3, don't have the engine built that they can cruise at a solid power for hours while burning mostly fat.

Most amateur folks with mortal ftp's most often ride their 2-3 hour rides in a state in which they're burning more carb than they think. They're not trained like a pro to burn a really high % of fat on a Z2 ride.

And most folks are on low enough volume that they can't ride at a low enough level in Z2 to burn more fat.

The closest folks get to this is long course triathletes. That lower zone adaptation is the name of the game. So, they could probably do it. Then again, the training volume just for the bike leg for a middle pack triathlete is equal or more likely than for a middling bike racer. Simply due to the nature of needing to be able to ride in Z2 for 4.5 to 5 or 6 hours nonstop then still go run. You need enough low intensity hours in the saddle.

And I can see a little of the distance riding elitism coming out, "dinky little 2-3 hour ride". Most any distance can be grueling depending on how it is approached.
I think if riders did not eat so much on short rides, they would be better off. 2 hours is a short ride and a properly fed rider is unlikely to bonk on such a ride. OTOH, the benefits of not eating on such rides are enormou I am not talking about a 2 hour uphill TT, but a normal training ride. I don't know anyone who does a 100 mile sportif in 2 hours. Obviously, a Cat 6 Sportif in the hills requires some fueling.

I think the person who said, "Maybe you are thinking more of the coffee and cake cruisers?" was a bit elitist or snottily suggesting I have no idea what I am talking about. I am pretty sure I have read very extensively on this subject and I am pretty sure most riders are doing themselves a big, fat disfavor listening and applying the misinformation suggested by PeterHski. He suggested eating two powerbars per hour, good luck with that.
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Old 07-08-21, 02:19 PM
  #154  
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62
I think if riders did not eat so much on short rides, they would be better off. 2 hours is a short ride and a properly fed rider is unlikely to bonk on such a ride. OTOH, the benefits of not eating on such rides are enormou I am not talking about a 2 hour uphill TT, but a normal training ride. I don't know anyone who does a 100 mile sportif in 2 hours. Obviously, a Cat 6 Sportif in the hills requires some fueling.

I think the person who said, "Maybe you are thinking more of the coffee and cake cruisers?" was a bit elitist or snottily suggesting I have no idea what I am talking about. I am pretty sure I have read very extensively on this subject and I am pretty sure most riders are doing themselves a big, fat disfavor listening and applying the misinformation suggested by PeterHski. He suggested eating two powerbars per hour, good luck with that.
That's right, misquote me while simultaneously taking my comments out of context. Top effort 10/10! I just take my nutritional advice from the likes of Trainer Road, Training Peaks coaches and Sufferfest. Maybe they are totally wrong, but their advice serves me well and is largely consistent across those different sources. And just to be clear I wouldn't eat 2 powerbars per hour on a 2 hour easy training ride. But I might well eat the equivalent of that on a hard 6 hour ride beyond the first hour.

The problem with these discussions is that everyone is talking about completely different sorts of rides. Anything from a 2 hour training ride through to a non-stop 1200 km ultra-endurance event. Then, like you just did, they cherry pick information to put down whatever they don't happen to agree with.
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Old 07-08-21, 03:45 PM
  #155  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
That's right, misquote me while simultaneously taking my comments out of context. Top effort 10/10! I just take my nutritional advice from the likes of Trainer Road, Training Peaks coaches and Sufferfest. Maybe they are totally wrong, but their advice serves me well and is largely consistent across those different sources. And just to be clear I wouldn't eat 2 powerbars per hour on a 2 hour easy training ride. But I might well eat the equivalent of that on a hard 6 hour ride beyond the first hour.

The problem with these discussions is that everyone is talking about completely different sorts of rides. Anything from a 2 hour training ride through to a non-stop 1200 km ultra-endurance event. Then, like you just did, they cherry pick information to put down whatever they don't happen to agree with.
Just from my own experience, I've found I can go 3-3 1/2 hours on only a 250 Calorie breakfast before riding, unless I do a climb (usually 30-45 minutes hereabouts), in which case I need to eat at least one bar, and sometimes two. So, yeah - even the same person doing similar length rides will have different feeding needs based on the nature of the ride. I remember TrainerRoad talking about how Sweet Spot workouts leave you wanting carbs, and climbing is pretty much a sweet spot workout
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Old 07-08-21, 04:31 PM
  #156  
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Originally Posted by genejockey
Just from my own experience, I've found I can go 3-3 1/2 hours on only a 250 Calorie breakfast before riding, unless I do a climb (usually 30-45 minutes hereabouts), in which case I need to eat at least one bar, and sometimes two. So, yeah - even the same person doing similar length rides will have different feeding needs based on the nature of the ride. I remember TrainerRoad talking about how Sweet Spot workouts leave you wanting carbs, and climbing is pretty much a sweet spot workout
Yes the TrainerRoad guys are pretty well into fuelling even pretty short training rides at sweet spot or above for best performance. I follow their podcast quite closely and nutrition is often discussed for both interval training and endurance races. They talk a lot about the difference in nutritional needs (especially carbs and salt) between a typical modern western sedentary lifestyle and a far more active lifestyle where you might be training 10+ hours per week at fairly high intensity.

The Training Peaks coach I was following last season (Pav Bryan) has a slightly more minimalist approach to fuelling, but still recommends plenty of carbs for longer, harder rides. He’s also very much a plant protein advocate, which works quite well for me as I naturally don’t eat much animal protein anyway.

Personally I sit somewhere in the middle. I don’t usually fuel short rides of an hour or less. I’ll maybe eat a small banana in the hour before. For a 2 hour effort I will usually eat 1 bar (40g carbs) and about 20g of liquid carbs. For a 4+ hour endurance ride I will eat maybe 2 or 3 bars, a couple of bottles of energy mix and a few gels. Around 80g carbs per hour at my full endurance pace. If I’m riding slower I might halve that intake. I find it physically hard to eat more than 80g of carbs per hour, so that is about my upper limit anyway.
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Old 07-08-21, 06:04 PM
  #157  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
I find it physically hard to eat more than 80g of carbs per hour, so that is about my upper limit anyway.
Makes sense, because it's unlikely that the adult gut can absorb more than that.

In a multi-hour race or hard training ride, I used to max out at about 50g of carbs.
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Old 07-09-21, 03:07 AM
  #158  
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
Makes sense, because it's unlikely that the adult gut can absorb more than that.

In a multi-hour race or hard training ride, I used to max out at about 50g of carbs.
Pro riders literally train their gut to absorb more carbs than normal. Like most human things it becomes a matter of adaptation. 120g+ per hour is achievable for some. I suspect most of the pros naturally have a higher than normal absorption rate anyway. A bit like having higher than normal VO2 max. It’s probably part of the natural selection process for pro riders.

I can just about deal with 80g without any problems if I eat/drink stuff that agrees with me. That’s where we all differ quite widely. It takes some trial and error to find the right mix of food and liquid energy. But I’ve found it to be the key to riding faster on endurance events without losing much power toward the end. You can dig yourself into a huge calorie deficit on a fast 6 hour ride if you don’t fuel it.
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