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I want to build my own lugged frame. I bet I'm not the only one

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I want to build my own lugged frame. I bet I'm not the only one

Old 11-10-10, 08:54 PM
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4Rings6Stars
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I want to build my own lugged frame. I bet I'm not the only one

I bet a lot of us have wanted to try building a lugged frame at some point or another (I know some C&Vers, ftwelder, sixtyfiver...and others actually do build frames). I have had the bug myself for a while but recently decided I'm just going to dive in and do it.

I'm going to get a torch and practice brazing on scraps and such to get a feel for it. A couple of my uncles are/were welders so I think I'll be able to scrounge an OA set up but I might even start with Mapp on the small stuff. I have some old junk steel frames but I'm not sure where to find cheap lugs (Pacenti, King James etc. are too nice) to practice on. I'm in college and don't have much spare money for tools, jigs, framesets..etc. so I'm trying to do this on a budget at least until I'm confident enough to actually build a frame.

I've started reading the framebuilders forum and posted there, but I am starting at square one and thought I might find others here that are in the same boat.

Are you out there? Any advice or thoughts on practicing or on getting started?

Edit. Found these lugs and these lugs. Looks like a good place to start.

Last edited by 4Rings6Stars; 11-10-10 at 08:57 PM. Reason: add text.
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Old 11-10-10, 09:01 PM
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I've been wanting to do the same thing. I've been lurking around at a local frame builder trying to learn as much as possible about EVERY aspect of frame building. I've done a bunch of welding in the past (used to work at a body shop and have "restored" numerous air cooled VWs so I'm pretty comfortable with melting metals together. There is so much to learn. If you can find a local frame builder that'll let you hang around, do it.

Oh and those lugs look pretty nice for the price

This might help too https://cgi.ebay.com/NOS-60S-SIMPLEX-...2#ht_500wt_949

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Old 11-10-10, 09:12 PM
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I'm also wanting to take up the torch and learn the craft at some point. I'm looking to play around a bit to get the basic feel of it, then perhaps take an immersion class with a builder to build a complete frame with expert guidance. After that, I figure I have an expensive hobby with some very practical benefits.
I've had great pleasure and satisfaction from any homemade projects I've undertaken, have always done all of my own bike builds/maintenance and wheelbuilding, so it seems natural for me to take the next step.

I'm currently trying to put money away for culinary school (another passion that will hopefully become a new career at midlife), so the frame class will have to wait for now, and I'll mess around with scraps and youtube videos in the mean time.

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Old 11-10-10, 09:24 PM
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Scrap frames can be cut up and used to hone your brazing skills for nothing other than the cost of cleaning time and filler rods. You can also buy straight 4130 and make your own pseudo-lugs using two close sizes that slip over each other. Cee-way sells cheap lugs for learning too, but you can make do with junk frames.

Cut apart your joints and see how well you the brass into the joints. I used to braze copper heat-exchanges for a living and have heaps of time on the torches... I'm learning smaw welding for work now... MIG and TIG tickets will follow in time.
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Old 11-10-10, 09:47 PM
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Here's a book that might be helpful--https://www.amazon.com/Lugged-Bicycle...=1P1J1HAIX503S
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Old 11-10-10, 10:03 PM
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I built a few frames and have random leftover tubes & bits. PM me if you want some odd parts for practicing for a few $ plus shipping.
You will need to get silver solder & flux.

(If this counts as some sort of illegal selling/advertising post, let me know & I'll delete it.)
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Old 11-10-10, 10:30 PM
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Great book reference. I might just get it. I, too, have dreamed of building a frame, and maybe my daughter can teach me how to silver solder. She just learned.
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Old 11-10-10, 11:53 PM
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What a timely thread...I was just speaking to Jake (junkfoodjunkie) about framebuilding classes in the near future...

I have a bit of machining/fabrication skill/experience/talent...but zero gas welding/brazing experience (I MIG and sometimes struggle around with TIG).

I'm thinking of first taking Doug Fattic's (in SW MI) 3-day brazing course, then practicing a bit, then taking a 2 week (10 day) course either there or with Dave Bohm (one-on-one).

I want to build a monostay frameset in either 953 (unlikely on my first frame from what I understand) or some kind of OS tubeset, since finding a Gazelle AA-Super anytime soon is unlikely!

Anyone have experiences with either of the above frame classes???
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Old 11-11-10, 12:05 AM
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It seems to me that there's no end of people that could cobble a frame together. The major challenges, to my mind:
-Deciding what the geometry SHOULD be. Either you're a bike expert or conneseur or else you're going to be copying some other frame or else it's just sort of a random arrangement of dimensions. In which case, you'd be better off, performance-wise, in just buying a frame.
-Getting everything lined up like it's supposed to be. Considering that nothing's square, it all comes in at odd angles, etc. You could conceivably spend more time getting a jig right than you do actually putting the frame together.
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Old 11-11-10, 12:08 AM
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Originally Posted by buldogge
What a timely thread...I was just speaking to Jake (junkfoodjunkie) about framebuilding classes in the near future...

I have a bit of machining/fabrication skill/experience/talent...but zero gas welding/brazing experience (I MIG and sometimes struggle around with TIG).

I'm thinking of first taking Doug Fattic's (in SW MI) 3-day brazing course, then practicing a bit, then taking a 2 week (10 day) course either there or with Dave Bohm (one-on-one).

I want to build a monostay frameset in either 953 (unlikely on my first frame from what I understand) or some kind of OS tubeset, since finding a Gazelle AA-Super anytime soon is unlikely!

Anyone have experiences with either of the above frame classes???
Bohm's 10 day is on my shortlist. I'd love to learn fillet brazing from Koichi Yamaguchi https://www.yamaguchibike.com/content/School

I know Mike Flanigan at ANT does a frame class, as well. That'd be pretty cool. https://antbikemike.wordpress.com/br-3/

There's always UBI, too: https://www.bikeschool.com/
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Old 11-11-10, 12:19 AM
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Another good resource is the old paterek manual which can be downloaded from;
https://www.iinet.com/~tpaterek/tpmanual_pdf.htm

I already have a acetylene torch and now have my own garage workspace, need to start practicing and collecting more tooling!
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Old 11-11-10, 06:33 AM
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Seems like you should be able to find something in the Boston area.

Geek House maybe? (Again site is blocked here at work).

This page is pretty old, but it might have some links that are still useful
https://www.angelfire.com/ma4/racine/framebuilding.html
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Old 11-11-10, 07:09 AM
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I will confess that I, too, have a desire to build lugged frame bicycles. I'd especially like the part where you file the lugs. But in practice, I think it is something I will continue to resist. Sure would be nice to be able to braze on cantilever bosses and that sort of thing, though.
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Old 11-11-10, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by buldogge
What a timely thread...I was just speaking to Jake (junkfoodjunkie) about framebuilding classes in the near future...

I have a bit of machining/fabrication skill/experience/talent...but zero gas welding/brazing experience (I MIG and sometimes struggle around with TIG).

I'm thinking of first taking Doug Fattic's (in SW MI) 3-day brazing course, then practicing a bit, then taking a 2 week (10 day) course either there or with Dave Bohm (one-on-one).

I want to build a monostay frameset in either 953 (unlikely on my first frame from what I understand) or some kind of OS tubeset, since finding a Gazelle AA-Super anytime soon is unlikely!

Anyone have experiences with either of the above frame classes???
Check out this day by day blog about Doug Fattics class:

https://twoseriousbikes.blogspot.com/...ing-class.html
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Old 11-11-10, 09:30 AM
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I think Mike at ANT only does TIG'd frames...no?

Originally Posted by canyoneagle
Bohm's 10 day is on my shortlist. I'd love to learn fillet brazing from Koichi Yamaguchi https://www.yamaguchibike.com/content/School

I know Mike Flanigan at ANT does a frame class, as well. That'd be pretty cool. https://antbikemike.wordpress.com/br-3/

There's always UBI, too: https://www.bikeschool.com/
I was just reading that blog earlier this week...Doug's is about 6 hours from here, so in that regards is an almost perfect location.

Originally Posted by Old Yeller
Check out this day by day blog about Doug Fattics class:

https://twoseriousbikes.blogspot.com/...ing-class.html
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Old 11-11-10, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by buldogge
I think Mike at ANT only does TIG'd frames...no?
He does it all I believe.

...Building a fully lugged frame is an option, but will cost up to $200.00 more for materials and may take more time...
ANT is local to me but I don't currently have the time or the money for a class. Looks like it would be amazing though and I would love to do it someday.
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Old 11-11-10, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by buldogge
I think Mike at ANT only does TIG'd frames...no?


Actually he does offer a lugged frame option. Did you check the prices??? Not that they aren't justified. The six week course is a major commitment.
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Old 11-11-10, 09:56 AM
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I'm building frame #2, both under the tutelage of an experienced local builder. I don't want to dissuade anyone from building their own frame, because it's a lot of fun and very rewarding, but we warned that (a) it's not easy to build a good, straight, rideable frame the first time around, especially if you don't have jigs, etc., and (b) it's not cheap. Silver solder alone for my first frame came to almost $100.

Pete
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Old 11-11-10, 11:47 AM
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I'd advocate learning and doing the first frame with brass and plain-gauge tubing, it's cheaper and more forgiving in my experience. It's still not cheap though but you can build things that work for hobby use, like this almost jigless setup. I plan on doing my first frame like this whenever I get a few other pressing projects out of the way...
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Old 11-11-10, 01:04 PM
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There are folks out there who offer classes in frame bui9lding that will result in you building your own frame. Scooper did it, so he may have some light ot shed on the experience.

That's your cue, Scooper.
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Old 11-11-10, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by 4Rings6Stars
I'm in college and don't have much spare money for tools, jigs, framesets..etc. so I'm trying to do this on a budget at least until I'm confident enough to actually build a frame.
You don't need a whole lot to get started. Fixtures are a convenience but not a strict necessity. A little care will get you decent alignment without one. And you'd have to try pretty hard to make an unridable frame.

A hack saw and hand files will do for cutting and mitering tubes. A bench mounted vise helps for this as well. A decent oxy-acetylene torch set up will cost a few hundred dollars, though.
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Old 11-11-10, 02:55 PM
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I have all the equipment except fixtures, so I figure I am a step up there.

I will need to get additional files, fresh hole saws, and a tubing jig for the Bridgeport.

I'm gonna start by having a pro show me how to braze...
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Old 11-11-10, 03:05 PM
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I've always wanted to learn as well. I'm actually in a pretty good place to try it soon....my neighbor has a O-A torch and knows how to work it right as far as cars go...

I know how to sweat plumbing....i've been told that's a leg up.
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Old 11-11-10, 03:19 PM
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David at Southwest Frameworks wants me to build a frame, we talked about it quite a bit
when I was painting my Trek at his shop. My wife tends to agree that this would be a good idea
(although I think for her it would just get me out of the house!).
I'll probably talk to David about starting after the new year, I've already got my eye on some
of the old lugs he has (Fischer pressed lugs!!!) and some of the newer Henry James lugs.
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Old 11-11-10, 04:42 PM
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Just a short note which perhaps points out the obvious:

The brazing process, using either brass or silver, since
it doesn't run a bead,and thus does not alter the physical
shape/state of either the tubing or the lugs, can be
reversed (with some degree of effort, and perhaps
a little colorful language.)

Thus what can be brazed can be unbrazed, which is
how BB's, tubes, etc that are damaged can be replaced.
It's not that easy to do, but is doable and in itself
provides quite a learning experience, especially
with light gauge tubing.

But the materials to practice with are free and
abundant, and in theory at least ( I have never
done so), you should be able to clean up a couple
lugs to the point where you could rebraze them
to tubing for practice. But if you can find cheapie
or leftover lugs (I saw a deal on I think the Rivendell
website where they were selling grab bags of
leftovers pretty cheaply not too long ago) that
would be the way to go.

Mike Larmer
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