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Old 02-25-20, 08:06 PM
  #26  
Doge
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Originally Posted by Riv-Lantis
That reminds me of Dave Zabriskie riding a fixed gear up a mountain with Floyd Landis for the State Bicycle video. He pretty much says you work so hard to get to that level and then find out it's not what you though it was, referring to the doping you have to do to stay with a team at the top tier.
I really hate to say this, but at this point if you're a kid coming up through the ranks you have to know the score when you're looking to make the jump up to a World Tour team. There's no way you can be that naive after spending enough time in racing.
Without proof, just assumptions, that is a reason we guided our kid out of the pro cycling direction. Even if you are clean, folks think you aren't. I am nostalgic about it, but pretty sure it was a good move.
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Old 02-26-20, 05:52 PM
  #27  
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Old 02-26-20, 06:46 PM
  #28  
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What about all those guys that cheated and lost?
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Old 03-07-20, 02:28 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by BengalCat
In most elite world-class highly physical sports doping has and is common. In cycling is has been so since the early nineties. In other sports such as track and field decade(s) earlier. People should accept it as it is never going to change and learn to get over it.
You must be much younger than I am. It would give me some hope if your timeline were correct but if you Google "Tommy Simpson" or "Jaques Anquetil" and you will find that doping has been prevalent in professional cycling since long before the early nineties.
Brent
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Old 03-07-20, 02:47 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by obrentharris
You must be much younger than I am. It would give me some hope if your timeline were correct but if you Google "Tommy Simpson" or "Jaques Anquetil" and you will find that doping has been prevalent in professional cycling since long before the early nineties.
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In cycling when I say doping I'm referring mostly to the introduction on a team basis with the availability of the relatively new drug EPO. The cycling team-wide use of EPO that we know about started in the early nineties as did the modern systemic doping using the combo regimen of EPO, anabolic steroids, blood doping, and transfusions. Before that, yes cyclists going back many decades were always trying something, most of which didn't work.

With track and field, it was mostly anabolic steroids, especially for athletes in disciplines such as sprints and shotput, we are talking seventies onward. The EPO usage came along about the same time as cycling.
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Old 04-13-20, 01:34 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Miele Man
I figure that if the leaders in a grand tour are doping and if others are keeping up with them that it only stands to reason that those others must be doping too.

It's not about the bike; it's about the dope and whether or not you get caught doping.

Cheers
Exactly. Look at the performance of Chris Froome in Stage 19 of the 2018 Giro D'Italia. With 80Km remaining in the stage he went on the attack and stayed away to the finish to win the stage by almost 4 minutes. Who does that? Before the stage he was 3:22 minutes behind in the general classification, and with such an insurmountable deficit he was considered not to even podium. What changed after Stage 18? He must of had some super duper enhancement....something that made him superior to his mere mortal rivals.
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Old 04-13-20, 02:02 PM
  #32  
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Well Froome started that stage in 4th place for GC and the fifth place Pinot Thibaut was already 1:02 behind Froome. Others behind Pinot rapidly getting further behind in overall time. Yates who was number one GC finished stage 19 in 79th place 38:51 back. POZZOVIVO started the stage 3rd in GC but finished 11th and 8:29 back. Dumoulin, who might have kept with Froome waited for Pinot that had broken a spoke. So Dumoulin finished 5th and 3:23 back.

Can't exactly claim doping when there is plenty of circumstance and strategy that came into play also during the last half of the stage.

Last edited by Iride01; 04-13-20 at 02:06 PM.
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Old 04-13-20, 02:37 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Iride01
Well Froome started that stage in 4th place for GC and the fifth place Pinot Thibaut was already 1:02 behind Froome. Others behind Pinot rapidly getting further behind in overall time. Yates who was number one GC finished stage 19 in 79th place 38:51 back. POZZOVIVO started the stage 3rd in GC but finished 11th and 8:29 back. Dumoulin, who might have kept with Froome waited for Pinot that had broken a spoke. So Dumoulin finished 5th and 3:23 back.

Can't exactly claim doping when there is plenty of circumstance and strategy that came into play also during the last half of the stage.
No, you can't exactly claim doping, but it is highly likely that was the case. If circumstances and strategy were so poor to allow a rider of his stature to go off alone with 80km remaining, then those team managers need to rethink their strategies.

Last edited by hrdknox1; 04-14-20 at 09:45 AM.
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Old 04-14-20, 09:46 AM
  #34  
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In the original, first Tour, the riders chugged coffee. They used whatever they could, in every single race. Doping is part of the sport.
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Old 04-16-20, 05:40 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by HeyItsSara
In the original, first Tour, the riders chugged coffee. They used whatever they could, in every single race. Doping is part of the sport.
Did they over the years not also take trains or ride cars and the like?
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Old 04-16-20, 06:28 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Riv-Lantis
I also find it laughable that you see articles and stories on the cycling sites that speak of this incredible new talent that's coming in a winning races at crazy young ages and the speeds are faster than ever. Then acting like it's the human genome that's evolving to make these kids faster at younger ages.
Are they faster than ever though? And if they are, is it just compared to his generation? If not, how much is technological progress responsible? How much is the internet responsible for hyping up such a talent?

And isn't it the same in every sport? You always have a few exceptional talents in every generation. How is that evidence for doping?

And it's the same not just in sport, how many humans alive today are in the same league as Einstein / Newton / Gauss? I find it very hard to believe that we should believe exceptions must be doping, since that implies without doping all the riders would be within a few % of each other. That is absolutely not the case, in any setting.
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Old 04-20-20, 08:58 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by ZHVelo
Are they faster than ever though? And if they are, is it just compared to his generation? If not, how much is technological progress responsible? How much is the internet responsible for hyping up such a talent?

And isn't it the same in every sport? You always have a few exceptional talents in every generation. How is that evidence for doping?

And it's the same not just in sport, how many humans alive today are in the same league as Einstein / Newton / Gauss? I find it very hard to believe that we should believe exceptions must be doping, since that implies without doping all the riders would be within a few % of each other. That is absolutely not the case, in any setting.
The effect of doping is far more significant than the few % points (and yes, elite pros are all within a few % points of each other) difference between the top guys. The effects of doping, in cycling at least, are also far more significant than the effects of advancements in technology.

This isn't to say that exceptional talents don't exist, but it would be foolish to not treat them as suspect given cycling's past and the decisive effects of performance enhancing drugs in cycling.
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Old 05-21-20, 07:42 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Rajflyboy
Well

but the young kid who wants to stay "Clean" is virtually screwed and will never make it in the pro peleton staying clean.
Eh, not true. I know someone in the pro peloton that doesn't dope and he won a stage in a GT last year. The "everybody does it" is a cop out for the less talented and driven when they get caught.
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Old 05-22-20, 09:58 AM
  #39  
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Say what you like but first of all, yes they did take trains and the like. Cheating is cheating.

2ndly, when Lance was forced to give back his awards, remember that they were not given to those who came in 2nd or 3rd. Those years were dirty.
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Old 05-23-20, 08:22 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Riv-Lantis
I'd say that 90% number is probably about right. Maybe a bit on the low side if just considering World Tour level teams. I'd venture that every one of those teams has a program.
I've gotten to where I simply don't care about the doping drama anymore. I like racing and I'll keep watching.
These doping stories sell because people generally love drama. And the more drama that can be wrapped up around the periphery of racing, the more it keep people hooked into talking about it constantly.
Exactly this for me.
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Old 05-23-20, 05:00 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by Riv-Lantis
I really hate to say this, but at this point if you're a kid coming up through the ranks you have to know the score when you're looking to make the jump up to a World Tour team. There's no way you can be that naive after spending enough time in racing.
Yes, a guy in my bike club was offered a position with a pro team. They laid out what his drug regimen would be. He said "No thanks" and never looked back. He never mentioned which team. He is recently retired from a real job.
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Old 05-25-20, 11:02 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by Riv-Lantis
...if you're a kid coming up through the ranks you have to know the score when you're looking to make the jump up to a World Tour team. There's no way you can be that naive after spending enough time in racing.
Right, kinda. The kids do not know the score, the parents may, or suspect they may. Which is why you get your kid out of it.
For those watching, look at USA juniors on the world stage. Then look a few years later. Called parenting.
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Old 07-17-20, 09:17 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by ridelikeaturtle
It's a rationalization, a coping mechanism, to throw it out there that "everyone's cheating", to justify the fact that /you're cheating/. They know it's wrong; it's /less wrong/ if everyone is cheating too.
Yes, it's totally this. I'm not saying that the peloton is clean as a whistle, but 90%? It's not the mid-2000's anymore.
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