GMJ

Hey all,

I was wondering what the best course of action would be. Fall 2015 I took on my first coach to really try and get serious with racing since I was starting to travel for some of the bigger track events and wanted to get further in road too.

Long story short, my numbers have gotten worse and I'm wondering what the collective experience has been and when is a rider justified in dropping a coach. I realize it's the winter but such a dramatic drop has got me kinda freaked out.

Dec 2015 5min Peak Power - 402w
Feb 2017 5min Peak Power - 342w

Dec 2015 20min Peak Power - 311w
Feb 2017 20min Peak Power - 260w

I've slimmed down and I used to work a manual labor job, which made me physically stronger but this kind of drop is pretty drastic.

FBinNY 

Not enough info to advise you any. For example, power aside, how's your speed and enduance?

But to answer the specific question about firing (or quitting) a coach, that's whenever YOU feel it's the right course of action for you. Coaches serve their clients, not the other way around.

GMJ

I had some of my best results, which is really confusing, considering that I should be much slower. I'm not sure if this was just from experience or what.

I've also considered the possibility that I just got older and ****tier but I'm only 25. This may had been my fault but I followed the plan pretty closely.

himespau 

Have you mentioned your concerns to your coach? Has your W/kg dropped too? How about intangibles? Has he worked with you on tactics? Improved your positioning on the bike? Are your improved results just experience that would have come without him?

Not arguing that you shouldn't drop him by any means, just that numbers are good for e-wang, but maybe not much else. I'd tell him that you're concerned with your numbers and mention that you're surprised that your power numbers going down have happened at the same time as your results are improving. Then maybe get into asking if he has an idea of why your numbers are going down because you're doing more structured workouts than you had when your numbers are higher (if you can do it nonconfrontationally so he doesn't get on the defensive and you blow up your relationship in case there is a simple explanation). It could be there isn't a good explanation and he doesn't know what he's doing, but you would be better able to judge that from a conversation with him than some strangers over the internet who've never met either of you or observed your workouts.

GMJ

Yes, definitely. Tells me not to be worried since it is winter and that is valid but we're both pretty stumped as to why I should have gotten slower.

I went back to school and work part time now from working full time, so I don't get nearly as much volume, which might be part of it too.

FBinNY 

At 25 age is definitely not a factor. As mentioned, maybe you need a dialog with the coach before you decide anything.

One thing to consider if you're getting faster, while less powerful is that these are not directly related. You mentioned slimming down, which brings to mind an old analogy --- which is more powerful, a race horse or a draft horse? Which is faster? And which do you want to train to be like?

howellhandmade

The decrease from December to February seems proportional. If you have lost enough weight, the decrease from 15 to 17 could be a result and you could still be faster. Have you done your own reading so that you are confident and believe in your coach's methods? If so, focus on the process, not the outcome.

PepeM

Power down, weight down. How is the w/kg? If speed and/or results were getting better I would be happy.

The answer is to talk to your coach. If you're unhappy you can leave any time, you have no obligation to him (unless you signed a year contract or something.) Just tell him you're not sure the program is working and ask him why you're seeing the numbers you're seeing.

Talking seems to be a lost art.

Hida Yanra

watts don't win races <repeat as often as necessary>
speed wins races.

other than talking w/ you coach (which it sounds like you've done), check with your w/kg, your VAM, and all the metrics that are actually related to getting across the line first.

mattm

What about results? Are they better or worse?

asgelle

Sounds like your coach delivered exactly what you asked for. That's about the best that can be said of a coach. Expressing what your goals are is your job, not his.

rubiksoval

Maybe your pm is messed up.

At the end of the day, it's the results that matter. No one cares what watts it took to get there.

caloso

I don't have enough information to answer your question about firing your coach, but for what it's worth I would trade watts for results any day of the week.

Ygduf

I was scrolling and scrolling hoping to be in before the "calibrate your meter" post.

Doge

It is always good to fire your coach every few years.
1 year is a bit soon.

topflightpro

This is my thought as well.

TheKillerPenguin

December vs Feb is significant insofar as what you're up to training wise. Assuming you're doing roughly similar stuff, figure you're 1.5-2 cycles deep into base at this point versus being pretty fresh and/or coming off fun fall riding in December. That makes a difference. And your results don't suck. What was your FTP in like September when you still had race fitness?

Also like everyone else asked, what do your w/kg look like since you lost weight?

TexMac

It's still Feb and today it's 80 degrees, can't complain, commute this AM, and PM some intervals most likely
3x6 @115%

echappist

that's a bit glib. this isn't European football, after all, where a manager who brings home a major trophy will still get canned
and another one: elevation.

Did the OP live a mile above sea level when he started? If he lived at sea level then and is living a mile up now, there's going to be some differences.

Doge

Using "fire" was glib. But transitioning is important.
Different coaches fit different levels of riders.

echappist

it wasn't the firing part but changing for the sake of changing, which is quite the rage on the soccer pitches. The Jose Mourihno carousel comes to mind.

But i can def see you point on that when a rider's level has changed over the years.

asgelle

And if there hasn't been significant change over five years, then it would also be time to consider a new approach under a new coach.

Doge

Kinda off topic/on topic.
Coach #1 is a friend and outstanding strength coach (former world champion body builder) and well known and successful crit rider. He was local and my 14 year old (then) son would train with him and ride with him. It was the perfect match.
My son moved from the beach to the mountains and the new focus will be track. Nothing about coach #1 is less than excellent, it is just that focus and location have changed.

TMonk

@GMJ used to live in the south, Atlanta IIRC. George did you move to Denver in the last 6 months? That would explain a lot...

GMJ

Watts per kg went down, but slightly. I've lost roughly 4.5 kilos.

I lived in St. Louis first and then moved to Denver. I arrived in winter '14, so I had already acclimated by then.

I haven't raced for five years, so I'm not in a position to fairly evaluate by that measure.

Haha that's funny that you remember me. It's been a while.

I also did my 20min test on a climb and blew up out the gun. Testing another round tonight and doing it on a trainer.

I feel better just reading the comments. Since the only people I actively talk to about training are in the same training group, I didn't feel it was right to raise my concerns like I had done here. I didn't get a resounding yes to drop the coach, which is all I need to see that I just need to chill-out and put a more macro lens on the situation. Peaking mid-to-late summer for track nationals, so I got time.

Thanks everyone.