balto charlie

[QUOTE=gauvins;22017687]
When on tour, you purchase the smallest toothpaste tube available, refill the Toob and discard the rest?
/QUOTE]

It sounds gross but you don't have to use toothpaste. Brushing removes plaque, flossing remove stuck foods.

gauvins

From your most recent journal on CGOAB

Fantastic. Thanks

WRT bivy. I'll probably try something and advise. It is indeed an interesting option, more flexible than a conventional tent. The deciding factor is the smaller minimal footprint.

I saw an interesting YT review of the OR Helium where the tourer used her bike, flipped upside down (gasp! ) to support her tarp. Makes perfect sense.

Thanks again for your spreadsheet (particularly because it serves as a gear inventory)

gauvins

Yup, Rollers. I've also purchased a set of City, not noticing the difference. BIG mistake. (lucky for me, OK for the kids)

Totally agree. As I said elsewhere in this thread, I'll reconsider the arguments for a bivy+tarp combo. Very pleased with my current Zpacks Duplex, but for solo I agree that there is a strong case for a bivy+tarp. (but there is also a strong case for not purchasing more stuff...)

staehpj1

I figure that hooped bivies like the Helium are kind of overkill with a tarp. They are almost tents in my estimation. It is about 3 times the weight and I assume 3 times or more the bulk of something like the Borah Side Zip. I'd probably just take a tent if I were going to take the Helium and a tarp. The tarp/helium combo would likely weigh almost as much and take almost as much space as some tents. Different strokes though.

As far as using the bike as part of the setup for the tarp... Yes, I do that at times depending on the site, but I don't flip it upside down. I often don't bother pitching the tarp though unless I expect rain is at least somewhat likely. I just keep it handy to pull over me and my gear if there is an unexpected shower. If I were using something like the Helium I'd be even less likely to pitch a tarp if I even carried one. I guess it would depend on the climate and season whether I bothered to carry one at all with the helium. If rain was likely to be a rare event I may not.

fourfa

I guess we're talking about the Helium bivy because I mentioned it a while back... I've slept hundreds of nights in a hooped bivy (Helium and mainly other OR bivvies before that) but never with a tarp. Rainy nights in the bivy aren't great, but have been rare where I've used them. Anyway I don't don't see why one would carry a roomy completely waterproof/breathable bivy PLUS a tarp, plus the hassle of pitching poles or trees or over a bike, just seems unnecessary. Half the time I'm bivving I'm in mountains above treeline, no bike, no poles, hard time getting stakes into scree piles; it's free-standing dome tent or bivy or nothing.

IF: I was expecting frequent rain, no bugs, sleeping 'out' with the most minimal possible bivy just to keep dew off the sleeping bag, planned to spend a lot of time in camp sitting up and reading or whatever, yeah the tarp plan sounds better. Possibly lighter for the most minimal possible bivy and tarp combo. FWIW my most recent long bike tour segment (Andalucia in December a few years back) camping in the bivy meant 14 hours from sunset to sunrise, that's a long time to be zipped in the bivy, and I gladly took a few 20E hotel nights along the way.

gauvins

1. Yes, in part because you've mentioned it, and in part because it has stellar reviews. Thanks for your mentioning it in the first place.
2. Unfortunately my next trip will we wet and full of bugs, such that tarp only makes no sense, and confinement of a different kind (stuck in a bivy during a downpour) quite likely. I'll get back to this issue eventually, because this is an important contributor to bulk, if not weight. For now, let me just say that Zpacks' Duplex, which is a fantastic piece of gear, comes in at a nominal 8L (!) vs 2.7L for an Helium + tarp. In my experience, 8L is probably a gross over-estimation (the stuff sack is large enough so you don't have to be a surgeon to stow your tent in the morning; but packed at the bottom of a pannier you can easily compress it by a factor of... perhaps 50%? So for now it'll definitely be a Duplex, but several posts made me reconsider the merits of a bivy+tarp combo (tarps are so small that they are becoming a no-brainer, even with a tent.)

staehpj1

The hooped bivy and really minimal ones are very different solutions in IMO. Neither one is a probably really good substitute for the other. The hooped bivy to me is a tiny tent and is a pretty confined space. A minimal bivy is more of a loose flimsy sleeping bag cover that moves with you so in a way you feel like you are just in your sleeping bag. I do often have a cord holding the mesh up off my face, but it is typically thin elastic and I can freely roll around. Basically I don't feel much more confined than just being in my sleeping bag and indeed can just zip it open any time there are no bugs biting. So for a rainy morning reading in camp it is generally not confining at all.

For me the bivy's functions are to keep the bugs off and to add some shelter from the wind chill or in the case of the bug bivy just bugs. The tarp is the shelter from the rain. Much of the time I only use the amount of shelter required. If it is warm and not buggy. I may sleep on top of everything, The pad would be in the bivy and the bag on top and I'd be sleeping on top of all three. The tarp would be handy in case of rain or pitched if I figured there was enough risk to warrant that.

My bivy/tarp combo is lighter and less bulky than the hooped bivys I have checked out and I find it more versatile and more comfortable for my usage. I have used a more normal regular bivy and found it less comfortable than what I am using. It got bad when the weather got hot and buggy. I'd have paid a lot for a bug bivy/tarp combo on one tour where I had a regular bivy, a hot night, and hungry Louisiana mosquitoes. I'd was pretty miserable, but would have been fine with the bug bivy and tarp (I was under and overpass so I actually wouldn't have pitched the tarp).

Have you seen one of the minimalist bivys? Not trying to be a smart ass, but most people's have not and their minds go to something like the Helium. Something like the Borah Side Zip is an entirely different animal.

bark_eater 

Summer camping in Maine north of the tick line, I would need a light sleeping bag almost every night, so I got away with just pitching a poncho tarp and a suspended mosquito net over my head. Some sort of thin evozote torso pad protected from ground chill. It was important to pick a good spot, but even 20 years ago with trailing edge gear this was a compact set up. I've had bivy bags , but they always have condensation, and they limit your choices when you wake up to a moose sniffing your face.

fourfa

Thanks to this thread I've been doing a bunch of reading about Zpacks, TarpTent (and this timely review on bikepacking.com), ultra minimal bivies, Dyneema as a tent fabric. Very informative, thanks!

staehpj1

Since you brought up the issue of condensation... I have found that with the DWR shell on my down bag if and am careful to face the mesh so I don't breath a lot of moisture into the bivy I don't have a problem. The moisture accumulated is minimal and easy to deal with. There are often a few drops beaded up on top of the sleeping bag shell that can be brushed off and a few under the sleeping pad down by my feet that can be wiped up in the morning. The ones on top of the shell might be ice sometimes. The bag has never been wet enough to lose it's loft or be a problem. These days you can even get waterproof down for added protection.

I've never woken to any large critter sniffing my face, but have had plenty visit camp during the night and I slept through the encounter. Some of those encounters likely would have scared the heck out of me if I had been awake, but I sleep through a lot

Happy Feet

When considering tents and cost vs weight I'll just throw out the North face Stormbreak 1 that I have. Fast pack weight of 1004gms at a cost of $169. https://www.thenorthface.com/shop/st...nf0a3byi-en-ca

The Tarptent rainbow in the link above is 765gms for $649 and less durable. That's about $500 for 250gms (one cup of water).

andrewclaus

[QUOTE=Happy Feet;22024481]...The Tarptent rainbow in the link above is 765gms for $649 and less durable. That's about $500 for 250gms (one cup of water).[QUOTE]

I'm curious where that $649 Tarptent Rainbow is. I didn't see a link. The US price is much lower and weight is listed as higher. And silnylon is very durable. I assume there's an alternate fabric version available somewhere?

Comparing "fast pack weight" (fly and poles only) to a Tarptent Rainbow isn't quite fair.

Happy Feet

The link is in post 59, a bikepacking review. There are prices near the end.

It's not a direct comparison of course, the rainbow is nominally 2 person and the Stormbreak is 1. It depends on what one needs. The fast pack comparison is pretty good though. I usually take one peg for the fly vestibule and no stays because it is freestanding, the tarptent is not. I don't take the tent bag because I store in a hb roll and I never use a footprint
I could also swap out the stock pegs for some titanium ones if I wanted. Again, depends on conditions and needs.

My only point was that $500 bought a cup of water weight saving and a more fragile fabric tent.

andrewclaus

Then why not compare the Double Rainbow with the Double Rainbow Li? In that case, a 13.4 oz savings is purchased with US$350, with more care required. This is why I don't own any Dyneema fabric.

Happy Feet

Ah.. I see the disconnect (I think). I wasn't making a direct comparison perse. I was reading the review in the article and reflecting how close my own tent was, as a simple lightweight shelter in comparison.

I am pretty happy with the Stormbreak as a reasonably priced alternative between a standard tent and a bivi/tarp combo (I own a bivi as well). If conditions are optimal a bivi/tarp is ok but if it's buggy or rainy they get old pretty quick. At the same time I am comfortable not taking a standard tent on many lightweight trips. The Stormbreak is reasonably priced and falls pretty close to the ultralight category but with more durable fabric and a simple freestanding design.

Just mentioning where my tent fell within the spectrum.

rekmeyata

I priced ultra compact and ultra light gear...well, I said forget it! The prices were nose bleed levels to get all this lightweight stuff. And some of the ultralight stuff isn't very good for durability either. I have friend who's into ultralight backpacking and his $450 tent leaked bad in his first rain night, he had to send it back to REI, so what are we suppose to do? pay $800 for some expensive tent? Nah, not me! but he did! So I went with some things that are heavier, like my tent, but it hasn't leaked. I understand people like to the ultra light thing, and that's good, nothing wrong with that, but I just didn't want to put out a lot of money to get to that point. So I haul around another 15 pounds or so of gear over the ultra light guys, it doesn't really bother me. Keep in mind that I had to buy all my camping gear at once, not over time, as stuff breaks or wear out I will buy lighter stuff, but until that happens I'm good, but I doubt I'll ever spend $800 for a tent! I only plan on doing one, maybe two touring trips across the US, the rest of the stuff I'll do is just short 2 to 7 days out type of thing and then back home. My wife and I may also take the RV out, go someplace, then I take the bike and go out on a 1 maybe 2 day out and then 1-2 day back to the camper type of mini bike trips at each campsite we park the RV at. This bike camping stuff is still new to me, I only went 3 times last year, so I'm still experimenting, but so far everything I got has been working great, I just have to learn not to pack so much food, I ended up carrying 2 extra days of food the first time, then I though ok cut back, so I did and still had a day too much. I'm also working on getting my articles of clothing not only down but less bulky clothes. It's a trial and error thing that's for sure.

We just lost our brown lab dog, we always take a dog camping with us because my wife doesn't want to be alone at a campsite if I'm off fishing or biking so we're looking for a new dog, I have my eye on a Anatolian Shepherd dog and waiting to hear back on this girl, hopefully we'll have this dog tomorrow! Dogs are getting adopted very fast these days, not sure if that's due to the C19 and people are feeling lonely? I don't know, but they come into these agencies and are gone in a day or two, unless their a pit bull then they can't rid of those. To bad there wasn't a dog that could run 40 or so miles while I rode! but then I would be afraid it would run out into the road.

imi

Sorry for you losing your dog.

They make UL dogs nowadays

staehpj1

It is quite possible to go pretty light without going to nosebleed level prices. I'd wager that my total gear expenditure for my current setup is probably below average if compared with the run of the mill here among non ultralight tourists. Ditto for the various ones I used along the way getting to where I am. Some spent a lot more and a few a lot less. As I went lighter and lighter I did splurge on a few somewhat expensive items like a nice sleeping bag, but I would have done that I had been packing heavy. I did not buy super expensive stuff. I got to 22# base and then a 14# base and even a 9# base once mostly by minimizing unneeded stuff and choosing effective items that are in most cases also cost effective.

When I used a tent it was a Eureka Spitfire 1 that cost about $100 and weight about 2lbs 9oz in the form I used it. At that point my base was 22#. As I went lighter I used an inexpensive bivy and tarp. I did later treat myself to a little more expensive bivy and a real nice tarp, but never spent a bundle on super expensive stuff like the $450 or $800 tents and what not that you reference. I splurge a little here and there but not on a lot of crazy expensive stuff.

Over the years I have probably spent a bundle on gear, but that is because I have a bunch or tents, several bivys, several tarps, and several of just about every gear item possible.

BTW, sorry to hear about your pup. We recently had a scare with ours and thought we were losing her. She is doing okay now after having her spleen removed, but is up in years and we are just enjoying what time she has left however long that may be. We hope it is years.

Happy Feet

I would echo Staehpj1's comments.

I started out inexpensive and upgraded as time went by, seeing where it would be worth spending a little extra and where it would not. I tend to take care of my stuff and some of it is still in service 30 years later so that cost can be calculated in a different way. For that reason I also tend to avoid the more fragile "ultra light" materials or designs. No matter how light it is it has to be able to stand up to outdoor use beyond the instagram picture.

There is a price point I think, between lightweight and ultra lightweight or compact where the cost benefit ratio gets harder to justify (for myself). I tour for the most part in Canada in the summer and shoulder seasons. I find light weight is relatively inexpensive to achieve but ultra compact isn't. The sheer volume of realistic dependable sleeping bags and layering of clothes makes that pretty unrealistic.

An example: A few years ago a friend and I did a long weekend trip through the interior during August, usually a pretty hot time. He went ultra light with a hammock, light quilt and no warm clothes. Turned out, at elevation during the night it got awfully cold and he spent most of it shivering and walking around to stay warm. I had a bulkier bivy, light sleeping bag and layer system of clothes, my minimum set up for our climate. Next day we hit a town and the first thing he did was stop at a store to buy a sweater. All was well and in the end it made for a good story but if that persisted for multiple days the trip would have begun to suck for him.

Ultra light or compact is good but it also has to be able to meet a range of conditions one might find, not just the ideal conditions one hopes for.

Tourist in MSN

If you know that some day you would like something lighter and watch for sales, you might get lucky and see the right thing show up on sale. A lot of my really light weight stuff was bought at closeouts or other sale prices. But when if you decide you need something soon and go shopping, you likely pay full price.

For example, over a decade ago I saw a great price on a down sleeping bag that was rated for about 20 degrees (F) [or about minus 7 C] and weighed less than a kg. I already had a good 20 degree bag that weighed a lot more, but I knew that a much lighter bag would be really nice. Since then I have slept in that really light weight sleeping bag a sum total of over a third of a year.

The tent that I used on my last two bike tours was better than half price on closeout. I was not looking for that specific brand and model, but when it showed up on sale, I grabbed it and have been very happy that I did so. At the time I did not have a trip planned, but I was sure that I would use it once I did.

For a decade I have been using the same titanium cooking pot on my solo tips, I bought it used for a fraction of the new price.

My sleeping pad was less than half price, bought it at an REI scratch and dent sale. The fault listed on the tag was that it was a display model and had a slow leak. I have found leaks in air mattresses and sleeping pads before so that did not concern me and I bought it. The leak is so slow that I still have adequate air in it in the morning, never bothered to try to find where the leak is.

rekmeyata

Can that dog teach me how to use my iPhone??

We're suppose to hear sometime tomorrow about that Ana Shepherd according to my wife. Thanks about the concern over our other dog, she was 11 year old Brn Lab, she was feeling under the weather for about 2 weeks, took her to the vet, they said she was fine, just old, ok, took her home where she just lied around a lot for about a week but would eat and drink somewhat, then about 3 days before she died she threw up dark blood, we took her to the ER Vet, they gave her pills but didn't know what was wrong other then to say she probably has liver cancer due to the breed, of course after throwing up blood she stopped eating and drinking, we gave her water with a syringe, but she would just gag it up, she got weaker and weaker, on the third day after the throw up blood thing I had to pick her up and take her to the vet, the doc was pretty sure she had liver cancer for which there is no cure at such a late stage, with no guarantee of surviving surgery, so we had her put down. I kind of wonder how long she had that cancer, because she never could gain any weight, she was thin for a brn lab, the Vet just said that's her metabolism, maybe, but maybe not? I don't know. I do know that we had to have 3 tumors removed from her because they would get quite large, doc said they benign and not to worry about them much unless they bother her walking which two of them did, but she would grow more, maybe one of those tumors was not benign?

rekmeyata

I know, everything I bought was on sale, mostly from REI too! though I did get some stuff from Walmart, and some from Amazon.

When you fixed your leaking air mattress do you think that a Rema glue on bicycle tube patch could work? I'm just curious in case I ever get a leak in mine.

Tourist in MSN

Not sure what Rema patch is.

The pads and air mattresses I patched at home, I used a small dab of Seam Grip. Some of those patches have lasted for almost a decade so far.
https://www.google.com/search?client...6-67e2ad38eee4

If you ever used Seam Grip before, you know that the tube hardens within a few months after you open the tube. But I have found the tube to last longer if I put the tube in an air tight glass jar and store it in the freezer. And sometimes when the tube has hardened at the opening but you can feel soft glue further down in the tube, I have heated a nail held with a pliers on my stove and used that to create a new hole through the hardened glue in the opening so that the glue further down in the tube had a pathway out the opening.

And on a bike tour I found a self adhesive inner tube patch to work well on my air mattress. Worked so well that I have added a patch kit to my backpacking supplies.



Which reminds me, I should check that patch and decide if I should replace it with a small dab of seam grip. I find those patches on inner tubes only last months, not forever. It might not last forever on an air mattress.

fourfa

I want to boost this... I've also done lightweight backpacking & thru-hiking in additional to extended bike tours. Of course you can get lighter by spending money on lighter stuff. But when it comes time to actually pack your gear, all of us struggle with which infrequently-needed items to bring. Of course all of us have heard the phrase "better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it" - a theme in UL hiking communities is "if you need it and don't have it, well, you don't really need it." I find this is even more true on bike tours, where it's more likely you're passing through towns most days.

Despite having a long-established UL mindset, doing test packing for long tours, going on shakedown rides before the start - every tour I still make some bad calls, and on day 4-5 I ship home a small box of stuff that I just don't need. All this is a roundabout way to talk about experience. Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement. I probably wouldn't advise inexperienced hikers to load up for a thru-hike with a 9# base weight. A lot of the process is knowing how your own body responds to long tours - temps, comfort, appetite, sun exposure, sleep comfort, joint problems, etc - all of these may need special provisions.

But the random things that you're not sure about - multitools and coffee gear and luxuries and spare whatevers - is really where the lowest-hanging fruit is for reducing bulk and weight. And it's free.

rekmeyata

Very interesting, thanks. I was wondering about self adhesive patches. I understand you are using Zefal self adhesive patches but the only last a couple of months? I've been using the Park Brand self adhesive patches for over 25 years, and they NEVER let go, I throw away tubes after about 8 to 10 years and the patches are still holding. Maybe you should try Park instead? Which of course makes me wonder if the Park patches would stay a long time on a mattress or not. When I get a leak in my mattress I will have to try the Park and see what happens. I still wonder though if the Rema Glue on tube patches would work better for a mattress or not.