Noob Question! Derailleur pivot?
09-08-21, 09:02 PM
#1
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Noob Question! Derailleur pivot?
I noticed my derailleur wasn’t moving on this pivot. The bolt was really tight, borderline about to snap off when I tried to loosen it. So I loosen it up 2 turns, hit it with some WD-40, (no time to take apart tonight) then tightened up figuring it would have a shoulder on it that would allow me to tighten and still allow the derailleur to move. When I tighten fully, the derailleur stops pivoting and the chain skips on the smallest cog. When I back off the bolt the chain stops skipping but I’m worried it’s going to loosen up too much.
Could it be there’s just a bunch of crud inside that I’ve got to clean out properly? Thanks for reading !
Could it be there’s just a bunch of crud inside that I’ve got to clean out properly? Thanks for reading !
09-09-21, 12:35 AM
#2
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That's happened to me a few times on lower level bikes without an on-frame derailleur hanger. I used an ample amount of blue Loctite on the hanger bolt threads and tightened it as much as I could while still allowing the derailleur to pivot. Maybe not the best solution, but it worked for my use.
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09-09-21, 05:53 AM
#3
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this is a great idea I’ve got some blue Loctite I can do this. But I’m wondering shouldn’t the bolt be shouldered, so that if it gets overtightened it doesn’t bind the derailleur? Then I’m wondering how it would provide a consistent tension maybe it would need one of those spring washers behind it and washer. Just hypothesising here!
Damn this stuff is FUN! 😀
(not being sarcastic I really enjoy discussing and working on them.)
Damn this stuff is FUN! 😀
(not being sarcastic I really enjoy discussing and working on them.)
That's happened to me a few times on lower level bikes without an on-frame derailleur hanger. I used an ample amount of blue Loctite on the hanger bolt threads and tightened it as much as I could while still allowing the derailleur to pivot. Maybe not the best solution, but it worked for my use.
09-09-21, 05:58 AM
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Is there a lock nut on the back of the claw? If so, all you have to do is adjust the bolt so that the derailleur swings freelt and tighten the nut
09-09-21, 06:04 AM
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You have two options:
Some pivot bolts have an arrangement of a shoulder on the bolt and a shim (or multiple shims) such that the body will pivot when the bolt is tight.
Other pivot bolts have a thin locknut which screws onto the pivot bolt on the inner face of the hanger - you adjust the bolt for freedom and lock it there.
If your pivot bolt extends a few threads on the inner face when it is tight you need a locknut; one from a rear QR axle should work, and this is the simplest and easiest solution.
If your pivot bolt is not long enough *and* it will seat on a shoulder when tight it is possible to remove sufficient material from the derailleur body to allow free movement; to do this properly will take skill, or a machine tool, or luck.
Some pivot bolts have an arrangement of a shoulder on the bolt and a shim (or multiple shims) such that the body will pivot when the bolt is tight.
Other pivot bolts have a thin locknut which screws onto the pivot bolt on the inner face of the hanger - you adjust the bolt for freedom and lock it there.
If your pivot bolt extends a few threads on the inner face when it is tight you need a locknut; one from a rear QR axle should work, and this is the simplest and easiest solution.
If your pivot bolt is not long enough *and* it will seat on a shoulder when tight it is possible to remove sufficient material from the derailleur body to allow free movement; to do this properly will take skill, or a machine tool, or luck.
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09-09-21, 12:53 PM
#6
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One more question about this old Apollo? When I'm in the high gear (smallest) in rear, the chain skips like a flat stone across a smooth lake. The worst is small/small (I know I shouldn't use that combo) but big/small does about the same, it's really annoying!
I've:
The sprockets all look pretty good, I can't see much wear. Pls see pic above. Thanks everyone!
I've:
- removed a link from the chain as it was really lose in small/small. Now it fits better but still skips
- I freed up the derailleur pivot so it can rotate. I haven't locktited it yet but at least it's moving
The sprockets all look pretty good, I can't see much wear. Pls see pic above. Thanks everyone!
09-09-21, 12:59 PM
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One more question about this old Apollo? When I'm in the high gear (smallest) in rear, the chain skips like a flat stone across a smooth lake. The worst is small/small (I know I shouldn't use that combo) but big/small does about the same, it's really annoying!
I've:
The sprockets all look pretty good, I can't see much wear. Pls see pic above. Thanks everyone!
I've:
- removed a link from the chain as it was really lose in small/small. Now it fits better but still skips
- I freed up the derailleur pivot so it can rotate. I haven't locktited it yet but at least it's moving
The sprockets all look pretty good, I can't see much wear. Pls see pic above. Thanks everyone!
09-09-21, 01:56 PM
#8
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That's a good idea for sure. it seems the 'ol friction shifter will swing the derailleur out way past the small cog, so I don't think it's that. I actually thought it was trying to pull it off the gear, so I backed off the shifter until the chain/derailleur/sprocket all lined up, but then she skips like a mother....
09-09-21, 02:09 PM
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Does the chain try to move to a different cog? Or does it stay on the same cog but every now and again link entering the cog at the bottom rides up on the tips of the teeth instead of settling to the valley between them, causing the chain to "jump" forward when the extra link arrives at the top of and is released from the cog?
If the former, adjust the derailleur.
If the latter, get new chain and/or cogs, whichever is worn.
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09-09-21, 02:13 PM
#10
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The chain stays on the smallest cog and jumps/skips teeth, it's really an unsettling sound. I think the former owner did a new chain to solve this issue but it didn't help. It's a new chain, with a pretty new looking cassette/freewheel, whatever that gear cluster is called. 
What exactly do you mean by "skip"?
Does the chain try to move to a different cog? Or does it stay on the same cog but every now and again link entering the cog at the bottom rides up on the tips of the teeth instead of settling to the valley between them, causing the chain to "jump" forward when the extra link arrives at the top of and is released from the cog?
If the former, adjust the derailleur.
If the latter, get new chain and/or cogs, whichever is worn.
Does the chain try to move to a different cog? Or does it stay on the same cog but every now and again link entering the cog at the bottom rides up on the tips of the teeth instead of settling to the valley between them, causing the chain to "jump" forward when the extra link arrives at the top of and is released from the cog?
If the former, adjust the derailleur.
If the latter, get new chain and/or cogs, whichever is worn.
09-09-21, 05:11 PM
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The chain stays on the smallest cog and jumps/skips teeth, it's really an unsettling sound. I think the former owner did a new chain to solve this issue but it didn't help. It's a new chain, with a pretty new looking cassette/freewheel, whatever that gear cluster is called.
09-09-21, 05:49 PM
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I noticed my derailleur wasn’t moving on this pivot. The bolt was really tight, borderline about to snap off when I tried to loosen it. So I loosen it up 2 turns, hit it with some WD-40, (no time to take apart tonight) then tightened up figuring it would have a shoulder on it that would allow me to tighten and still allow the derailleur to move. When I tighten fully, the derailleur stops pivoting and the chain skips on the smallest cog. When I back off the bolt the chain stops skipping but I’m worried it’s going to loosen up too much.
Could it be there’s just a bunch of crud inside that I’ve got to clean out properly? Thanks for reading !
Could it be there’s just a bunch of crud inside that I’ve got to clean out properly? Thanks for reading !
Chain skipping...
Often the problem ... - cross-chaining - running the chain from Large Chainring to Large rear cog, or Small chainring to small cog... more of a problem on older 5-6-7 spd setups, less issue on the modern, more flexible systems and more flexible chains.
either or both limit screws need adjustment
worn cog - if its the smallest or least used, not likely a problem...
bent or excessively worn cog teeth...
stretched chain - you say its new - I would still check chain ... Or chain is stiff and needs cleaning...
chain link/links are stiff and need some loosening of the tight link plates.
axle/freewheel alignment
RD jockey cage assembly may be out of alignment
check the limit screw settings first...
This is all for old school friction shift systems - there are additional considerations for the newer indexed/Brifter systems...
Thx
Yuri
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09-10-21, 10:38 AM
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I'm going to piggback on this thread, as I am running into a similar issue.
I am trying to replace a Suntour Superbe with a Suntour Cyclone GT.
The Superbe does pivot, as there is just enough material sticking out from the back of the mounting bolt to allow the derailleur to pivot. There is no "b screw", just a fixed stop.
The Cyclone is a different story. There is a nut that screws onto the mounting bolt. Even if I leave the nut "loose" on the bolt, the nut gets tightened onto the bolt as the bolt is screwed into the dropout. When tightened the derailleur will not pivot (without excessive force). This derailleur has a "b screw" for adjusting the derailleur body. The nut also provides clearance so that the derailleur body does not seat up directly against the dropout.
So, I am at a loss as to what to do. Is it as simple as the GT is not supposed to pivot after adjusting the "b screw" and fully tightnening the mounting nut? I don't really see a way to keep the nut from tightening everything up when screwing in the mounting bolt.
Any help would be appreciated. I've been fighting with this (physically and mentally) for a couple days.
Hopefully these pics might help figure this out.
The dropout on the frame:
The Superbe I want to replace:
The Cyclone GT I am trying to install:
I am trying to replace a Suntour Superbe with a Suntour Cyclone GT.
The Superbe does pivot, as there is just enough material sticking out from the back of the mounting bolt to allow the derailleur to pivot. There is no "b screw", just a fixed stop.
The Cyclone is a different story. There is a nut that screws onto the mounting bolt. Even if I leave the nut "loose" on the bolt, the nut gets tightened onto the bolt as the bolt is screwed into the dropout. When tightened the derailleur will not pivot (without excessive force). This derailleur has a "b screw" for adjusting the derailleur body. The nut also provides clearance so that the derailleur body does not seat up directly against the dropout.
So, I am at a loss as to what to do. Is it as simple as the GT is not supposed to pivot after adjusting the "b screw" and fully tightnening the mounting nut? I don't really see a way to keep the nut from tightening everything up when screwing in the mounting bolt.
Any help would be appreciated. I've been fighting with this (physically and mentally) for a couple days.
Hopefully these pics might help figure this out.
The dropout on the frame:
The Superbe I want to replace:
The Cyclone GT I am trying to install:
barely works with a 25, best for biggest cog of 21 - 23... a racing RD... back in the day...
your Cyclone...
The 'Nut' on the mounting bolt - Not needed on a dropout with the RD mount integrated with dropout - most better bikes, from 1974-ish and newer LOL!
That would be the Bike/dropout in your images...
The "Nut' was supplied in case the RD was to be installed on bikes which need a RD mounting plate - see image the OP Amilio - supplied... that bike requires the mounting plate.
In your case, just mount the RD and tighten to the dropout.... done... then do the B Screw adjustment as needed.
Edit: And the nut, when placed on the inside of the mounting bolt (dropout side...) , allows the proper gap to the drop, especially for Ultra7 freewheels, and works for cassettes...
Last edited by cyclezen; 09-10-21 at 02:15 PM.
09-10-21, 01:23 PM
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I'm going to piggback on this thread, as I am running into a similar issue.
I am trying to replace a Suntour Superbe with a Suntour Cyclone GT.
The Superbe does pivot, as there is just enough material sticking out from the back of the mounting bolt to allow the derailleur to pivot. There is no "b screw", just a fixed stop.
The Cyclone is a different story. There is a nut that screws onto the mounting bolt. Even if I leave the nut "loose" on the bolt, the nut gets tightened onto the bolt as the bolt is screwed into the dropout. When tightened the derailleur will not pivot (without excessive force). This derailleur has a "b screw" for adjusting the derailleur body. The nut also provides clearance so that the derailleur body does not seat up directly against the dropout.
So, I am at a loss as to what to do. Is it as simple as the GT is not supposed to pivot after adjusting the "b screw" and fully tightnening the mounting nut? I don't really see a way to keep the nut from tightening everything up when screwing in the mounting bolt.
Any help would be appreciated. I've been fighting with this (physically and mentally) for a couple days.
I am trying to replace a Suntour Superbe with a Suntour Cyclone GT.
The Superbe does pivot, as there is just enough material sticking out from the back of the mounting bolt to allow the derailleur to pivot. There is no "b screw", just a fixed stop.
The Cyclone is a different story. There is a nut that screws onto the mounting bolt. Even if I leave the nut "loose" on the bolt, the nut gets tightened onto the bolt as the bolt is screwed into the dropout. When tightened the derailleur will not pivot (without excessive force). This derailleur has a "b screw" for adjusting the derailleur body. The nut also provides clearance so that the derailleur body does not seat up directly against the dropout.
So, I am at a loss as to what to do. Is it as simple as the GT is not supposed to pivot after adjusting the "b screw" and fully tightnening the mounting nut? I don't really see a way to keep the nut from tightening everything up when screwing in the mounting bolt.
Any help would be appreciated. I've been fighting with this (physically and mentally) for a couple days.
Clarification: The slotted nut is recessed into the body of the derailleur. Not referring to a nut that locks the adjustment for a non-integrqated hanger & tightens against the backside of the hanger..
Last edited by Hobbiano; 09-10-21 at 06:31 PM. Reason: clarification
09-10-21, 04:07 PM
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While that looks like a AR here is the ARX manual.
https://www.disraeligears.co.uk/site...83_scan_9.html
https://www.disraeligears.co.uk/site...83_scan_9.html
09-10-21, 04:20 PM
#16
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I'm with cyclezen.
I experimented with various ways to mount the Cyclone GT (with and without the nut, not tightening the der to the dropout so it could pivot) when I went from an Ultra-6 to a 7 speed freewheel. It worked perfectly for years on the Ultra-6 but missed shifts between the 3rd and 4th cogs (20 teeth to 18) frequently with the 7 speed. If I left any play between the frame and the der, every shift was annoying, not just some of the shifts between 2 gears. I had the same problem with a V-GT Luxe, by the way..
I experimented with various ways to mount the Cyclone GT (with and without the nut, not tightening the der to the dropout so it could pivot) when I went from an Ultra-6 to a 7 speed freewheel. It worked perfectly for years on the Ultra-6 but missed shifts between the 3rd and 4th cogs (20 teeth to 18) frequently with the 7 speed. If I left any play between the frame and the der, every shift was annoying, not just some of the shifts between 2 gears. I had the same problem with a V-GT Luxe, by the way..
