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Can someone explain Garmin FTP new records to me?

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Can someone explain Garmin FTP new records to me?

Old 08-24-21, 08:12 AM
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NoWhammies
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Can someone explain Garmin FTP new records to me?

So. My Garmin has the 'auto FTP calculations' feature enabled. Back in June I sent out and did a very hard/fast ride. At the end of the ride, my Garmin said "Congratulations! You set a new FTP record. Do you accept?". And yes, this was in fact a new FTP record for me because I knew what my old FTP was. So I clicked yes.

A few weeks later I was out for a ride. A fast ride, but nothing like the ride back in June. At the end of the ride my Garmin said "Congratulations! You set a new FTP record. Do you accept?" Now, this FTP was definitely slower than the one from June. So I clicked no. I then went in an doubled checked my Garmin FTP setting. It was the higher setting from June.

A month or so after that I was out on a fast ride and again. At the end of the ride my Garmin said "Congratulations! You set a new FTP record. Do you accept?" This FTP was again lower than the June FTP. But what the heck, I said yes and went on with my day.

This has happened a few times since. Sometimes the FTP is higher than what is recorded, other times lower.

Anyone have any idea what's going on here? The only thing I can come up with is the FTP calculation involves weight, correct? And I use my Garmin scale daily. So is Garmin calculating a new FTP for me each time based on my weight? Thank you.
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Old 08-24-21, 08:19 AM
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Good question.

Garmin has been lowering my VO2 max over the past 6 weeks and my FTP went up.

They have it all wrong if you ask me.

No 64 year old man in the world has a VO2 max of 73 and lowering it to 61 while FTP is increasing. That ain't wonky, it is wacky wrong. I think I know the source of their error but really don't want to get that deep on this .
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Old 08-24-21, 09:39 AM
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Garmin is always congratulating me for new records and things. So to is Stava that my son uses to upload his rides too.

My son decided to try out the cycling challenge thing on the Garmin App where you can challenge friends to something. It was simply a challenge to ride this weekend. Turned out neither of us was able to ride, but Garmin gave us both first place badges for the challenge.

I think Garmin and Strava have a T-ball mentality about badges.

But getting back to FTP, you do know that the more you ride the better your FTP should get. So new badges or records for FTP should be expected.
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Old 08-24-21, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by NoWhammies
So. My Garmin has the 'auto FTP calculations' feature enabled. Back in June I sent out and did a very hard/fast ride. At the end of the ride, my Garmin said "Congratulations! You set a new FTP record. Do you accept?". And yes, this was in fact a new FTP record for me because I knew what my old FTP was. So I clicked yes.

A few weeks later I was out for a ride. A fast ride, but nothing like the ride back in June. At the end of the ride my Garmin said "Congratulations! You set a new FTP record. Do you accept?" Now, this FTP was definitely slower than the one from June. So I clicked no. I then went in an doubled checked my Garmin FTP setting. It was the higher setting from June.

A month or so after that I was out on a fast ride and again. At the end of the ride my Garmin said "Congratulations! You set a new FTP record. Do you accept?" This FTP was again lower than the June FTP. But what the heck, I said yes and went on with my day.

This has happened a few times since. Sometimes the FTP is higher than what is recorded, other times lower.

Anyone have any idea what's going on here? The only thing I can come up with is the FTP calculation involves weight, correct? And I use my Garmin scale daily. So is Garmin calculating a new FTP for me each time based on my weight? Thank you.
Not sure why it would do that, but you could do a standard FTP test protocol and calculate it yourself. There's a half dozen ways of skinning that cat, but I always come back to the classic:

warm up
5' time trial
recovery
20' time trial
cool down

FTP wattage = 0.95 x avg. power of the 20' TT
Divide by weight in Kg
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Old 08-24-21, 10:24 AM
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It's not a record. Garmin has a "personal records" feature and the watch will track several pre-defined ones for cycling, running, and swimming, and give you congrats when you make a new PR. There's a list you can see in the app and the web site, things like your longest ride, most elevation gain, and best 20 minutes average power. FTP isn't on that list. This is why it's telling you about lower values and not just higher ones.

The feature uses (requires) a chest strap HRM which is very weird for an FTP function. It's looking for HRV patterns that indicate you're at your threshold. When it finds that with some level of consistency it'll tell you. Also when you set a new 20 minute MMP record it'll tell you your FTP is 95 % of that.
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Old 08-24-21, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Iride01
My son decided to try out the cycling challenge thing on the Garmin App where you can challenge friends to something. It was simply a challenge to ride this weekend. Turned out neither of us was able to ride, but Garmin gave us both first place badges for the challenge.
I don't have any special insight into Garmin, but as a software developer it sounds pretty obvious what happened. 🙂

A contest has a list of results. You can find the winner by sorting that list and taking the numerically highest value. Unless it's a tie, then the winner is everybody with that value. In your case, it was a tie, the highest value in the list was shared by one and all. 🙂 They just "forgot" to check for zero and disqualify you. Most assuredly somebody at Garmin realized the issue after it went live, brought it up, and a PM said "contests where nobody participates won't happen enough for us to change the code" without thinking twice about it.
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Old 08-24-21, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
I don't have any special insight into Garmin, but as a software developer it sounds pretty obvious what happened. 🙂

A contest has a list of results. You can find the winner by sorting that list and taking the numerically highest value. Unless it's a tie, then the winner is everybody with that value. In your case, it was a tie, the highest value in the list was shared by one and all. 🙂 They just "forgot" to check for zero and disqualify you
. Most assuredly somebody at Garmin realized the issue after it went live, brought it up, and a PM said "contests where nobody participates won't happen enough for us to change the code" without thinking twice about it.
I really like that part. As a former programmer of call center telephony software and IVR's, I had to deal with that often. My wife still does with the higher ups at the company she works for.

And when they say it will never happen, it most certainly always does.
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Old 08-24-21, 06:36 PM
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Also - how exactly does the Garmin Edge device calculate V02 max numbers?

I get the increase message here an there after a ride, but no idea what sort of riding triggers this or how it's calculated.

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Old 08-24-21, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by tempocyclist
Also - how exactly does the Garmin Edge device calculate V02 max numbers?

I get the increase message here an there after a ride, but no idea what sort of riding triggers this or how it's calculated.

While I don't know the formula they use, but I do know that it is related to heart rate and power. This is because if I'm doing an interval at at low cadence (i.e. lower heart rate), it'll give me a VO2max improvement, compared to when I do the same power at high cadence (i.e. higher heart rate). So much so that it's pretty easy to "game" the system.
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Old 08-24-21, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by tempocyclist
Also - how exactly does the Garmin Edge device calculate V02 max numbers?

I get the increase message here an there after a ride, but no idea what sort of riding triggers this or how it's calculated.

There are a lot of formulas for estimating VO2max from all sorts of different info. Using heart rate and measured power is supposed to be one of the better ways to estimate, but it needs high intensity ride data. Google can probably find you the formula if you're curious. Garmin / Firstbeat use code to only put the parts of your ride data into that formula that they think will provide the best answer. They published a white paper explaining it, but all their examples were for running.
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Old 08-25-21, 05:52 AM
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The patent says they use HR and Speed. So, there is no reason to think it uses power.

Since I switched from riding a very fast recumbent in June to an upright bike, my 5 minute power has increased around 30 watts and I have not gained weight. Garmin had thought my VO2 max was 73 ml/kg on the recumbent and now it thinks it is 61 ml/kg on the upright and yet, I am making more power.

What is different? I am much slower on the upright.

Both are incorrect but if my 5 minute power increased over the past 8 weeks and I did not gain weight, Garmin should have reported an increase in V)2 max and not a decrease.
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Old 08-25-21, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62
The patent says they use HR and Speed. So, there is no reason to think it uses power.
It won't calculate without power unless you're running.
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Old 08-25-21, 11:39 AM
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You should not have quit doping. Stay on the juice.
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Old 08-25-21, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
It won't calculate without power unless you're running.
How do you know that?

My example and the patent more than suggest otherwise.
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Old 08-25-21, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62
How do you know that?

My example and the patent more than suggest otherwise.
Instead of taking my word for it, you can see for yourself. Use a Garmin that's calculated VO2max for you, disconnect it from your power meter, but feed it HR data and GPS which it uses for speed. Or a dedicated speed sensor if you prefer. It won't (be able to) give you a VO2max number. Then connect the power back up. It will again.

Garmin uses the same software feature to estimate VO2 for runners. Running power meters is a nebulous, shadowy realm, but if you assume flat pavement and minimal wind, running pace is analogous to bike power. The white paper describing the feature talks about running and cycling but most of the examples are for running. This is almost certainly why the patent, which isn't a technical specification for the code, talks about speed. But black box testing proves that it won't calculate without power for cycling. 🙂
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Old 08-25-21, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62
How do you know that?

My example and the patent more than suggest otherwise.
I'm not sure that a Garmin Edge will not estimate V02max without power meter data. But I know that I have no power meter, and it has never shown me V02max estimates from biking. My Garmin watch (talking to the same app that the Edge uses) does in fact give V02max.
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Old 08-25-21, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Broctoon
I'm not sure that a Garmin Edge will not estimate V02max without power meter data. But I know that I have no power meter, and it has never shown me V02max estimates from biking. My Garmin watch (talking to the same app that the Edge uses) does in fact give V02max.
Fair enough, you don't know.

Here are some facts, I went from a recumbent with a CdA of around 0.160 m^2 to an upright with CdA of around 0.360 m^2 during which time my VO2 max power increased 46 watts. Logic would say my VO2 max increased during that time. Yet, my Garmin reported a decrease from 73 to 61 ml/kg.

What other explanation is there that firstbeatoff uses anything other than speed and HR as the primary determinants of VO2 max? Read the patent.
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Old 08-25-21, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
Instead of taking my word for it, you can see for yourself. Use a Garmin that's calculated VO2max for you, disconnect it from your power meter, but feed it HR data and GPS which it uses for speed. Or a dedicated speed sensor if you prefer. It won't (be able to) give you a VO2max number. Then connect the power back up. It will again.

Garmin uses the same software feature to estimate VO2 for runners. Running power meters is a nebulous, shadowy realm, but if you assume flat pavement and minimal wind, running pace is analogous to bike power. The white paper describing the feature talks about running and cycling but most of the examples are for running. This is almost certainly why the patent, which isn't a technical specification for the code, talks about speed. But black box testing proves that it won't calculate without power for cycling. 🙂
Read my posts and make a more reasonable response.

How could the Garmin report a lower VO2 max when my 5 minute power and all of my hill climbing time PB are being smashed. The ONLY change is going from a bike where 25-30 mph is a piece of cake to a normal bike. Explain that. I have looked into this enough to know their algo is garbage.
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Old 08-25-21, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62
Fair enough, you don't know.

Here are some facts, I went from a recumbent with a CdA of around 0.160 m^2 to an upright with CdA of around 0.360 m^2 during which time my VO2 max power increased 46 watts. Logic would say my VO2 max increased during that time. Yet, my Garmin reported a decrease from 73 to 61 ml/kg.

What other explanation is there that firstbeatoff uses anything other than speed and HR as the primary determinants of VO2 max? Read the patent.
Your heart rate was different. That would explain what you saw entirely. I understand that you think you have a good guess, I just told you how to prove it disprove it.
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Old 08-25-21, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
Your heart rate was different. That would explain what you saw entirely. I understand that you think you have a good guess, I just told you how to prove it disprove it.
You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

If my 5 minute power went from 350 watts to 396 watts, the only direction my VO2 max went was positive.

Yet. Garmin indicated it went from 73 to 61.

WRT to HR, as one gets fitter and fitter, it is not unusual to make more power at a lower HR.

NOTE: I never indicated HR in my posts. Why? it is not relevant to the discussion
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Old 08-25-21, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62
You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

If my 5 minute power went from 350 watts to 396 watts, the only direction my VO2 max went was positive.

Yet. Garmin indicated it went from 73 to 61.

WRT to HR, as one gets fitter and fitter, it is not unusual to make more power at a lower HR.

NOTE: I never indicated HR in my posts. Why? it is not relevant to the discussion
Lol. Your calculated VO2 = fancy PWR:HR. Of course different HR will change the result of the math! . We're talking about maximal oxygen use, your heart is there too deliver oxygenated blood to the rest of your body.

This will be my last reply to you in this thread, you're clearly looking for a fight, I'm here to share the little bit of knowing I've been able to accumulate.
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Old 08-25-21, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
Lol. Your calculated VO2 = fancy PWR:HR. Of course different HR will change the result of the math! . We're talking about maximal oxygen use, your heart is there too deliver oxygenated blood to the rest of your body.

This will be my last reply to you in this thread, you're clearly looking for a fight, I'm here to share the little bit of knowing I've been able to accumulate.
Fine. You tell someone they are wrong and do not address the points of their posts. Milk toast.

You have not provide any knowledge or analysis or rebuttal of what I have presented other than pathetic and patronizing advice on figuring it out. I have figured it out. Garmin's VO2 max algo is garbage.

Two facts supporting what I said

1. Increasing 5 minute power by 46 watts during the same time that Garmin indicates a loss of VO2 max from 73 to 61 irrefutably shows they have it wrong. In case you do not know, 5 minute power is the best proxy for VO2 max.

2. Show me a single 63 year old man with a VO2 max of 73. This is not credible on its face.

Aside from increasing my fitness substantially over the past 10-12 weeks, my only other change was converting from a very aerodynamic and fast recumbent to an ordinary racing upright bike.

The simplest and most plausible explanation is they use speed. Alas, their white papers and patent speak to that point. With that said, I am done. You can believe what you want, I presented real data from the same power meter corroborated with 5 minute hill climb data on the same hill I have used for many, many years.
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Old 08-25-21, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62
Aside from increasing my fitness substantially over the past 10-12 weeks, my only other change was converting from a very aerodynamic and fast recumbent to an ordinary racing upright bike.
You are back to an upright? What precipitated that?
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Old 08-25-21, 09:23 PM
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My indoor workouts don't have speed, only power and HR.
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Old 08-26-21, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62
If my 5 minute power went from 350 watts to 396 watts, the only direction my VO2 max went was positive.
Or your VO2max remained the same/decreased accompanied by an increase in anaerobic work capacity, or lactate tolerance, or threshold power as a fraction of VO2max, ...
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