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XC or Gravel

Old 04-20-23, 04:24 PM
  #26  
Polaris OBark
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Originally Posted by wolfchild
you can't put anything bigger than 38mm on most gravel bikes, so tire clearance alone makes MTBs more versatile.
This is true of the Trek Domane (for example). That is their endurance road bike. If you need to use wider tires, you could put on 650b wheels (27.5" in mtn bike speak). Trek's gravel bike lets you put on 50 to 55 mm 700c tires.
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Old 04-20-23, 04:40 PM
  #27  
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It’s not a super easy answer. Neither style has an actual hard value that makes one or the other.

Lots of models out there aren’t appreciably different than an XC mountain bike. 69 degree head angle and 29x2.4 or wider tires.

Is it really just a rider preference of drop bar vs flat bar?

I think it’s fair to say that anything with clearance for 45mm or less and generally looks like a road bike is probably a gravel (or CX) bike.

Anything with front suspension and can handle 2.2” to 2.8” tires and has a flat bar is probably a hardtail MTB.

Sure seems like there’s a lot in the middle I missed.
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Old 04-20-23, 04:54 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by rosefarts
It’s not a super easy answer. Neither style has an actual hard value that makes one or the other.

Lots of models out there aren’t appreciably different than an XC mountain bike. 69 degree head angle and 29x2.4 or wider tires.

Is it really just a rider preference of drop bar vs flat bar?

I think it’s fair to say that anything with clearance for 45mm or less and generally looks like a road bike is probably a gravel (or CX) bike.

Anything with front suspension and can handle 2.2” to 2.8” tires and has a flat bar is probably a hardtail MTB.

Sure seems like there’s a lot in the middle I missed.
The way I look at it, bikes exist on a spectrum. There's always some bikes that blur the lines of a category.
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Old 04-20-23, 05:09 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Eric F
The way I look at it, bikes exist on a spectrum. There's always some bikes that blur the lines of a category.
Yep. Lots of blurred lines these days.



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Old 04-20-23, 05:10 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by tempocyclist
Or you could get a Canyon GRIZL with the front suspension fork. Might be less hassle, but also the front travel is probably less than most XC bikes.
I have a Grizl with a non suspension fork. The stock 700 x 45 tires are good on most unpaved surfaces. According to Canyon it has room for 700 x 50 tires
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Old 04-20-23, 10:37 PM
  #31  
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I think the pros and cons are pretty obvious. What really matters is what do you actually want out of this? If you are out for speed and that is all that matters to you then gravel bike make that an aero gravel bike with deep section wheels. Do you want a nice comfy cruise where you just get some miles in and enjoy being outside then a XC bike with gravel tires is the way to go forget the drop bars. They make all kinds of funky multi hand postion bars these days for gravel riders that use flat bar shifters and brakes or just get old school bar ends. Gravel has no rules. I ride a cyclocross bike and I ride with a guy on his full suspension mtn bike with 140mm of travel that just swaps wheels and tire. In certain places I'm better off and in others he is but we both finish the ride and have fun.
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Old 04-20-23, 10:56 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild
Yeah but you can put narrower gravel tires on an 29er MTB but you can't put anything bigger than 38mm on most gravel bikes, so tire clearance alone makes MTBs more versatile.
No offense; but My Salsa warbird has 42mm and My Salsa Cuttroat has 2.2" tires.

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Old 04-21-23, 12:13 AM
  #33  
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Paved roads and trails = road bike will be faster/more efficient at killing those miles.
Flat unpaved river trails or rail trails = gravel bike (or road bikes with 28-32mm tires) will be faster.
Technical trails (chunky, rocky, root-y) with a lot of steep climbing and descending = MTB.
The stuff in between = it's a toss up; this is stuff that I can do on my gravel bike and be slightly underbiked, or I can do it on my front suspension hard tail and be slower on the climbs but faster on the descents, and just more confident overall.
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Old 04-21-23, 12:39 AM
  #34  
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Back in the Dark Ages (aka, the 1990a) , I put a pair of skinny slicks, Spinacci bars, a rear rack, and panniers on a XC bike and road with a buddy fron Oakland to LA along the PCH. He waa on a touring bike and I was just as fast. The front end was a little twitchier than a road bike but I got used to it and could pound out the miles in an aero tuck with the Spinaccis. So you can go quickly on a XC with proper tire choice. But a couple of things to note...

1-the longer crank arms of a mountain bike will affect your cadence.
2-you'll likely be geared lower than a gravel bike, so you'll climb better but might run out of gear inches on paved descents.

So whether or not you should get an XC depends on just how chunky the gravel you want to ride is. If it's dirt farm roads then a gravel bike may be the right tool. But if it may include some single or zketchy double track, then XC with the right tires may be the way to go.
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Old 04-21-23, 05:14 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Eds0123
No offense; but My Salsa warbird has 42mm and My Salsa Cuttroat has 2.2" tires.
I haven't surveyed the entirety of gravel bike offerings, but I have looked at some and that seems more in line with what I'd expect. Does anyone have a link to a compilation of that info for the wider gravel market?
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Old 04-21-23, 08:50 AM
  #36  
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IMO drop bars on any xc/gravel bike serve no purpose for maybe 99% of riders. You just ain't needing that aero position. A needless expense that gets you zip. There's a number of discussions about that here already.
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Old 04-21-23, 09:14 AM
  #37  
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I put drop bars on my mountain bike. It is a major improvement. Otherwise, I need those bar end things to keep my wrists in an ergonomic position.
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Old 04-21-23, 09:22 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by KalinDrew
Thanks for replies. I think Im gunna go with a xc hardtail and maybe put drop bars on it.
Thats rarely the best decision, if geometry for the bar switch isnt carefully considered.
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Old 04-21-23, 09:23 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by tyrion
Yep. Lots of blurred lines these days.
There is a strong reason why this bike has continued to be an extremely niche product. It tries to blur the line and ends up just not being as good as either in the respective categories.
Its certainly creative though.
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Old 04-21-23, 09:25 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild
Yeah but you can put narrower gravel tires on an 29er MTB but you can't put anything bigger than 38mm on most gravel bikes, so tire clearance alone makes MTBs more versatile.
You need to have a filter where your comments go thru a review before being posted to the forum. That way whatever wild claims you are making at any given time can be edited out and actual real information can stay.
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Old 04-21-23, 09:31 AM
  #41  
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This is a troll thread, right?
It's not that complicated.

Gravel = drop bar, usually with a rigid fork but sometimes small travel suspension. Frame geometry generally ranges from "road race" to "XC". Tire clearance is more limited. If you put a flat bar on a gravel bike, it's a XC MTB.

XC = flat bar, usually with a suspension fork but not always. Geometry on hardtails is basically identical to slack gravel bikes, but some XC bikes have full suspension. Tire clearance is generous. If you put a drop bar on a XC bike, it's a gravel bike.

A drop bar is beneficial because it's more aero and offers multiple hand positions for long stretches of cruising straight roads. The downside (compared to flat bars) is that drop bars are generally lower, the flat part is narrower so they are less maneuverable for technical terrain. Also the levers are on the drops. If you want more maneuverability for technical terrain and don't care about longer stretches where aero or ergonomics might matter, then flat bars are great.
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Old 04-21-23, 09:34 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by Steel Charlie
IMO drop bars on any xc/gravel bike serve no purpose for maybe 99% of riders. You just ain't needing that aero position. A needless expense that gets you zip. There's a number of discussions about that here already.
Have you spent much time riding a gravel bike? In my own experience, and observation of other gravel bike riders, many folks use the drops when descending rougher terrain. It's not about aero, it's about leverage. This is why a lot of gravel riders prefer flared drop bars. It's also about having a variety of hand positions when rolling long distances.
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Old 04-21-23, 10:00 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by KalinDrew
I want to go as fast as possible as comfortable as possible.
As fast as possible over what terrain? Generally speaking, a gravel bike will be the fastest option on smooth gravel. A MTB would likely be faster over most singletrack.

Originally Posted by KalinDrew
Lael wilson won the womens unbound xl in 2021 on a specialized epic hardtail with drop bars.
If a pro on an xc bike can beat most others on gravel bikes thats fast enough for me
Are you racing Unbound or interested in riding fast over similar terrain? An Epic hardtail with drop bars is likely a very fast bike for this terrain and if the geometry works for you it would make for a great all around gravel bike. Most consumers don't want to buy a new bike and replace the groupset, handlebar and stem - so they would likely buy something like a Diverge instead, which has very similar geometry but is designed around a drop bar setup instead.

Originally Posted by KalinDrew
if a gravel bike is only good if I ride on road AND off road in the same ride and a xc bike is good if i stay off roads completely then I think i will take the xc.
Depends on your definition of "road". They aren't just defined by pavement and cars. There are lots of gravel/fire/two-track roads out there that cars don't use (or rarely use), where a drop bar gravel bike would a better choice for most than a flat bar XC bike. If you mainly ride singletrack then a flat bar bike probably makes more sense.

Originally Posted by wolfchild
Yeah but you can put narrower gravel tires on an 29er MTB but you can't put anything bigger than 38mm on most gravel bikes, so tire clearance alone makes MTBs more versatile.
This is incorrect. Most gravel bikes can fit wider tires, and MTB's with narrower tires generally handle very poorly, plus MTB's with flat bars put riders in very upright positions, which is not very good for long straight fast stretches of riding.

Originally Posted by Steel Charlie
IMO drop bars on any xc/gravel bike serve no purpose for maybe 99% of riders. You just ain't needing that aero position. A needless expense that gets you zip. There's a number of discussions about that here already.
I disagree with this opinion. Even if you don't use the drops at all, the geometry of a drop bar design places a rider's hands on the tops/hoods a lot further out in front and a lot closer together than a flat bar setup does. The multiple hand positions on a drop bar give riders more options to stay comfortable on longer rides.
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Old 04-21-23, 10:28 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr
There is a strong reason why this bike has continued to be an extremely niche product. It tries to blur the line and ends up just not being as good as either in the respective categories.
Its certainly creative though.
Niche? What do you mean "niche"? The Evil Chamois Hagar is probably the best drop bar, unsuspended, 45mm tired, downhill bike in existence.
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Old 04-21-23, 10:40 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by tyrion
Niche? What do you mean "niche"? The Evil Chamois Hagar is probably the best drop bar, unsuspended, 45mm tired, downhill bike in existence.
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Old 04-21-23, 10:41 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by msu2001la
MTB's with flat bars put riders in very upright positions, which is not very good for long straight fast stretches of riding.
It depends a lot on how you have your bike set up. I haven't made any measurements or even photo comparisons, but I get the feeling that my spine angle on my MTB is not significantly more upright than being on the hoods of my gravel bike. That said, my MTB might be set up more aggressively than a lot of people prefer. The wider grip width on my MTB is definitely less efficient for pushing though the air, however, and the multiple hand positions of a drop bar (as you also mentioned) are much preferred for the variety of terrain I ride on my gravel bike.
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Old 04-21-23, 10:54 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by KalinDrew
if a gravel bike is only good if I ride on road AND off road in the same ride
This ^^^ is an inaccurate conclusion. There are definitely areas where a gravel bike shines in dirt. Anything fairly smooth, hardpacked, and not significantly twisty, a gravel bike may be the more efficient machine. There are some local dirt climbs that I do on both my hardtail MTB and my gravel bike on a regular basis. On the ones where there are significant exposed rocky sections, I'm faster on my MTB. On the ones where it's smoother, I'm faster on my gravel bike. It really comes down to the terrain you ride, and your preferences.

Multiple times you have indicated a preference for a drop-bar MTB. If you think that will suit your needs best, go for it. Your opinion matters more than anyone else's.
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Old 04-21-23, 08:44 PM
  #48  
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Ive looked at the lauf seigla in the past. it looks like a very capable gravel machine. However I do most of my riding on a gravel levee (double track) it is by all means NOT a smooth gravel road which is why i consider an xc. I rode my dads diverge with future shock (1.5 i believe) for about and it was very rough at 16-17 mph. i rode a little on a paved backroad (not a single car passed me) and it was very smooth and much more comfortable than my old road bike. so someone tell me this; Will i be able to average close to the same speed (within 1-2 mph) with a hardtail xc mtb (thinking either a specialized chisel or a used sc highball i found on pinkbike) as a fully rigid gravel bike?? (putting out the same watts of course)

I can put up with the roughness if a gravel bike will be significantly faster (3 or 4 mph) than a properly setup hardtail xc bike. if it will only save me 1 or 2 mph then i will definitely take the xc bike as i occasionally ride super chunky mountain trails and would b nice to not push my current pig of a mtb around them.

My goal is not to have “fun” this is for training for those times i occasionally go to the mountains on my bike.

my version of fun is jumps and berms downhill all day but i live in a flat area and love anything two wheeled.
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Old 04-21-23, 08:47 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by tyrion
Chamois Hagar.
Every time I see this, I read it as Chamois Hanger.
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Old 04-21-23, 09:41 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by KalinDrew
Ive looked at the lauf seigla in the past. it looks like a very capable gravel machine. However I do most of my riding on a gravel levee (double track) it is by all means NOT a smooth gravel road which is why i consider an xc. I rode my dads diverge with future shock (1.5 i believe) for about and it was very rough at 16-17 mph. i rode a little on a paved backroad (not a single car passed me) and it was very smooth and much more comfortable than my old road bike. so someone tell me this; Will i be able to average close to the same speed (within 1-2 mph) with a hardtail xc mtb (thinking either a specialized chisel or a used sc highball i found on pinkbike) as a fully rigid gravel bike?? (putting out the same watts of course)

I can put up with the roughness if a gravel bike will be significantly faster (3 or 4 mph) than a properly setup hardtail xc bike. if it will only save me 1 or 2 mph then i will definitely take the xc bike as i occasionally ride super chunky mountain trails and would b nice to not push my current pig of a mtb around them.

My goal is not to have “fun” this is for training for those times i occasionally go to the mountains on my bike.

my version of fun is jumps and berms downhill all day but i live in a flat area and love anything two wheeled.
It’s hard to give you the definitive answers you’re asking for because there are too many variables. Any bike will be a compromise somewhere, and will excel more than others somewhere else. A hardtail MTB with fast-rolling tires (Schwalbe Thunder Burt, for example) will do pretty well compared to a gravel bike in a lot of situations where a gravel bike is at its best. If you want to also ride the same bike on terrain that is beyond the capabilities of a gravel bike (or your skills), then your choice seems pretty clear.

You have made multiple mentions (some subtle, some not) of why you think a hardtail MTB is a better choice for you. I think your mind was made up a long time ago. Great. Go with it.

Last edited by Eric F; 04-22-23 at 05:22 PM.
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