bampilot06

those are dope, did they just come out?

timtak

You assume rightly. I ride on smooth, Japanese, empty, wide country roads, mainly.

That said, cars overtake, and from time to time there is traffic. I use the tops (sphinx) when there aren't many cars around, at least when there are not cars that are likely to appear in front, and I am unlikely to be required to brake.

Please call me Tim

(my name is Timothy Takemoto. If you want to use Mr. then I am "Mr. Takemoto" but I would very much rather you did not call me "Mr. Takemoto.")

Maelochs

My apologies .... Tim.

I hate being familiar with people I have never met, but that is just one of my many problems.

When you say you use the tops, do you tuck your elbows? I had sort of figured you used aero bars.

You must have some serious core strength.

timtak

You know me. You can call me Mr. Takemoto, or Prof Takemoto if you prefer! (I still rather Tim).
Ah. Well spotted. Yes, I do tuck my elbows and get my back low. While the sphinx is possibly the most aero position for the solitary rider, it can be difficult to maintain. I could not in the past.

But in my newish (past two years) Carbonfibreboy influenced, old-school, French-style, bunched up at the back, glute-centric, Francesco Moser ish cycling position (sort of like riding a road bike as if I am sitting on a super high recumbent,pushing forward and pulling back) my centre of gravity is over my seat so the sphinx is easy.

https://www.velominati.com/tradition...omment-page-1/

genejockey 

Do you have to shoot zombie threads in the head to actually kill them?

What if we say "Timtak" 3 times?

Isn't the Moser position just a less aerodynamic version of "aero hoods", but with extra hip closure?

timtak

I am not sure why you'd want to kill old threads. Old threads are old because they have information that remains relevant, I think. But if you want to kill a thread perhaps saying "genejockey" three times be more effective, since you may (I am not entirely sure) tend to post this sort of negativity.

I find that it enables me to push forward and pull back while horizontal. Since I pull as well as push my legs now help each other.

Here are my goofy lenses

Visor Lenses by Timothy Takemoto, on Flickr

datlas 

Goofy Glasses and a timtak’d stem are legendary on BF.

noodle soup

I love seeing TimTak posts when i'm doing a BF drive by.

Trakhak

No zombie thread is complete without a(nother) digression. So---

I have aero bars on all my bikes (to counter the effects of nerve entrapment at my left elbow that surgery was unable to fix). So I spend a lot of time in what TimTak felicitously named the "sphinx position," or even lower, depending on the bike.

That being the case, I always wonder where people get the idea that core strength is needed for maintaining a more or less flat-backed position with aero bars.

In the aero bar position, most of my upper-body weight is comfortably supported at my elbows. The rest serves to keep me down on the saddle while I'm applying force to the pedals. While I'm riding, neither my abdominal muscles nor my back muscles feel as though they're under any greater tension than when I'm sitting at a table and leaning my elbows on it.

I can see that core strength is useful in downhill skiing when skiers descend a steep hill in the aerodynamic position that inspired the invention of aero bars. But skiing isn't cycling. Other than cycling, I never do any exercise that I can avoid, so no weight training, core work, etc. Yet the only muscle discomfort I ever feel is in my arms---triceps, specifically---and then only on very long rides where I've spent more time out of the aero bars than usual.

genejockey 

Old threads are old because they were started years ago. Age does not imply, nor impart wisdom (which I can say now that I am An Old).

The reason I mentioned opening the hip angle is because this is one of the more recent improvements in both comfort and efficient output of power. Compared to The Old Days, race bike positions have lower bars and the saddle more forward, allowing the use of positions like aero hoods, which is not only more aero than riding in the drops (because forearms are level), but also even an old fat guy like me can ride in them for miles, with practice.

BillyD

Dayum, where have you been?

timtak

I am sorry. Old people deserve respect.

I think that road bike cycling may have become popular in France because it allowed small French guys (the bigger ones died in the Napoleonic Wars) to beat their bigger neighbours by using a trick. Instead of pushing down on the pedals, which requires an open hip angle, they pushed forwards giving up the push (as Carbonfibreboy recommended) at about 4 to 5 position to pull back. This push-forwards pull back motion does not require an open hip angle. When even bigger, faster, stronger (and doped) guys arrived the French trick rarely wins, but the trick is an effective way imho to stay fast and exercise the all important anti-ageing butt muscles, as one gets old.

Fact checking
Moser was pretty tall 180, and from Italy!
Anquetil 176
Hinault 174
Poulidor 172

genejockey 

If that were so great, people would still be doing it, because they'd be winning over other riders who weren't. Think of racing as analogous to Natural Selection - that which gives advantage is propagated and overtakes the less advantageous. Also, looking at those guys in the Moser position makes my inflexible back ache. I have always been so inflexible that I cannot get closer than about mid-calf when trying to touch my toes. So I ride with a straight back and roll my pelvis. I can't do closed hip angle.

In a way, it reminds me of a recurring discussion I have with my wife. She's fascinated by the disinfectant properties of things like vinegar, which she reads our ancestors used to use for cleaning. I point out that 1) vinegar is a relatively poor disinfectant, 2) those ancestors didn't even have Germ Theory yet, and 3) infectious disease was one of the most popular ways to die back then. So, adopting the disinfectant of people who largely died of infectious disease may not be the wisest move.

SPlKE 

Me, before I got the tactical glasses "Tanto" is selling.

timtak

I am trying to argue against the evolutionary model.

I am not sure how disinfectant strengths are measured (mg per kg to kill all X in Y time?) (paper, paper) but there are clearly stronger disinfectants than vinegar.

However, there are some situations, such as when the taste of the thing disinfected matters or when skin is involved and too much strength can be non-optimal, when I might use vinegar.

The cycling industry would have us believe one style (the pro style) of glasses, stem,or pedalling fits all, when there are many cyclists in many situations.

genejockey 

Nonsense! All of those things are available in multiple different versions. Stems, for example, run the gamut from +/-17 to 0 degree, and then there are riser stems with > +17 degrees. Saddles are available in myriad styles, including flat and wave, narrow and wide, short nose and long nose, etc. Seatposts are available from >2cm of setback to some that are actually set FORWARD. There are aero bikes, climbing bikes, and endurance bikes. There are cranks from 165mm to 180mm. Bars from 36-46m wide and a number of different curves. Brake/shift levers have reach adjustment now, and the top ones have free stroke adjustment.

This is the OPPOSITE of one style fits all.

genejockey 

You can argue against it, but the data are not on your side. Current pros are much faster than their predecessors, for a variety of reasons, including a better understanding of the biomechanics and aerodynamics of cycling.

Now, this is not to say that how you choose to do things is bad. One of my tenets in cycling, for example, is that if a bike was a "Good Bike" 40 years ago, and it's still in good condition and working like it did 40 years ago, it's STILL a good bike - like my 1982 Lotus Supreme - Tange Champion 2 steel, Dura Ace kit, etc. It's a Good Bike! But it's not as fast, as versatile, nor as all-day comfortable as my 2020 Canyon Endurace. But I would have no qualms about taking it out for a 4 hour ride (except today, when it's raining). The Lotus is a Good Bike. The Canyon is a Better Bike, in most ways you can measure.

timtak

They also have greater height and more greater use of pace-lines neither of which are available to me.

The pros and the petri dish have the data, but I don't need data to know that I would rather disinfect my salad with vinaigrette than activated hydrogen peroxide, nor that I need prescription lenses bigger than Oakely inserts, nor that if I ride alone in traffic I need a bike with an aero-manoeuvrability compromise between that of a road bike and a time trial bike, nor that I don't need to open my hips.

But when I use some glasses, or stem, or cycling style that suits me, and attempt to recommend to others like me, that is not what literal companies are doing, not what the pros are doing so it is old, and not worth resurrecting, to you.

Lombard

I will argue over whether this is worth arguing over.

genejockey 

Greater height = more drag. Better position + more aerodynamic bikes (plus other things) = increased speeds.


If you're using vinaigrette to disinfect your salad, U R doin it wrong.


Mostly, we're pointing out that what you're saying about aerodynamics, what bike companies do, and what the pros do is hogwash. As I said, you're free to ride however you like, but when you start making nonsensical claims about 'the pro riders and their unaerodynamic bikes', you can expect to be challenged on it.

thin_concrete

Man - I love this forum!

BTinNYC 

I saw this and knew immediately timtak is the man.

timtak

I doubt is a coincidence that people have put vinegar and lemon on raw vegetables, but if you use hydrogen peroxide as a salad dressing (or a peloton bike when you are cycling alone) you are doing it wrong.


The pros ride the most aerodynamic bikes for the pro peloton, they also ride the most aerodynamic bikes --- time trial bikes -- for riding alone on roads cordoned off from traffic. For the solo rider on road with traffic, something more aggressive than a pro peloton bike and less aggressive than a pro time trial bike seems to me to be appropriate,but to be hogwash to you.

That was my first attempt at an ear fairing before I realised that my winter ear muffs were thin enough to wear all year around, and double as reflectors.

Ear Muffs as Ear Faiings by Timothy Takemoto, on Flickr

genejockey 

I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt that you're not talking about Peloton exercise bikes, though based on previous experience that may be too generous.
I think the big reason why people have historically put vinegar or lemon on fresh vegetables is that it tastes better, raw veggies being pretty bland.

This fetish you have for describing bikes other than time trial bikes as "peloton bikes" is ridiculous. The bikes the pros ride are designed to allow you to pound along on the flats at high speed for long distances, to climb steep gradients efficiently, and then to descend steep gradients on the other side safely at high speed, to ride solo or to ride in a group, both as quickly and efficiently as possible. They are a tool for doing all those things well.

TT bikes are great for pounding along the flats at high speed, but are compromised in power delivery. They're not designed to climb or descend, nor are they good in a group. They are a specialized tool for a single task, which is great. I would note that TT bikes have changed over time, because they found that LOW is nor necessarily the be-all and end-all. Positions have gotten less hunched over, and yet riders and bikes are more aerodynamic, because they actually studied it rather than simply hypothesizing.

I've seen you multiple times dismiss current Pro Tour bikes as "unaerodynamic group ride bikes", which is what I'm calling hogwash. WRT riding solo on roads with traffic, that's also what I do. But I also like to climb hills and descend, and ride for 3-4 hours at a time, so I prefer a bike that does all those things. Interestingly the World Championship Time Trials are generally about an hour long, +/- a few minutes, versus the long hours of the Road Races. TT bikes are designed to be tolerable for about an hour. Race bikes, for 6 or more hours. If you're only riding an hour, you can tolerate some things you couldn't over 3-6.

timtak

In order to remain fit and slim, I think it helps to reduce frontal surface area, by keeping your back fairly level to the ground (requiring, if you wear spectacles, goofy glasses, or a craned up neck).

I did a Google image search for your Canyon Endurace and took screen-shots of the thumbnails where people were riding *on* the saddle.

It seems to encourage are more "relaxed" position, since after all it is a longer distance bike, "endurance" bike but some of the riders are riding aggressively. Bikes like this seem to encourage bursts of aerodynamic riding rather than riding aerodynamically for a long period of time.

Canyon Endurance
I think that the smaller drops of modern pro-peloton bikes tend to result in the same thing. I would love an Endurace. I would slam it, put non compact handlebars on it, and negatively angled stem, and ride for about three hours a day, looking out of the tops of my goofy glasses.