The Odd Duck -- Puzzling Paramount Purchase
06-22-22, 10:08 AM
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The Odd Duck -- Puzzling Paramount Purchase
I don't know how these things keep happening. I ended up with a late 1960s Schwinn Paramount. But it's an odd duck.
The serial number (E912) marks it as May 1969 production. By 1969 the only Paramount in production was the P13. And some of what this has are correct for that: the pedals, shifters, headset, crankset, high-flange hubs, all are Campagnolo Record; the calipers are Weinmann centerpulls; the stem looks right also. But it doesn't have any chrome, which would make it a P12. It doesn't have any decals or headbadge either, probably because a PO had rear rack, water bottle and frame pump attachments added (I've never seen any of those on a period Paramount) and then a repaint. The lugs appear to be 1968 pattern. The seat (a Brooks B72) and the rims (no-name 27" alloy Schrader with Presta sleeves, 4-cross lacing) are not standard on either a P12 or P13.
I thought perhaps it was a P11, but that doesn't seem right either, because (a) the production of that stopped in 1968; (b) the bars are alloy mustache, clearly different from the steel upright ones I've seen on verified P11s; (c) P11s have plain flat rattrap pedals, this one has top-line shapely Campy Record steel cage ones. I can't find a source of P11 componentry to reach any firmer conclusions, but the derailleurs (SunTour Cyclone rear, Campagnolo Nuovo Record 0104007 front) date from the early 1980s.
Perhaps it is one of the very last P12s, not assembled until well into 1969, which was then modified in the early 1980s for touring. That's my best guess. But I'd like the opinions of the Paramount Sherpas before deciding what to do with it.
Right side view.
The serial number (E912) marks it as May 1969 production. By 1969 the only Paramount in production was the P13. And some of what this has are correct for that: the pedals, shifters, headset, crankset, high-flange hubs, all are Campagnolo Record; the calipers are Weinmann centerpulls; the stem looks right also. But it doesn't have any chrome, which would make it a P12. It doesn't have any decals or headbadge either, probably because a PO had rear rack, water bottle and frame pump attachments added (I've never seen any of those on a period Paramount) and then a repaint. The lugs appear to be 1968 pattern. The seat (a Brooks B72) and the rims (no-name 27" alloy Schrader with Presta sleeves, 4-cross lacing) are not standard on either a P12 or P13.
I thought perhaps it was a P11, but that doesn't seem right either, because (a) the production of that stopped in 1968; (b) the bars are alloy mustache, clearly different from the steel upright ones I've seen on verified P11s; (c) P11s have plain flat rattrap pedals, this one has top-line shapely Campy Record steel cage ones. I can't find a source of P11 componentry to reach any firmer conclusions, but the derailleurs (SunTour Cyclone rear, Campagnolo Nuovo Record 0104007 front) date from the early 1980s.
Perhaps it is one of the very last P12s, not assembled until well into 1969, which was then modified in the early 1980s for touring. That's my best guess. But I'd like the opinions of the Paramount Sherpas before deciding what to do with it.
Right side view.
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06-22-22, 10:26 AM
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Components tell you nothing reliable about the vintage of the frame.
It's a nice bike. How's it ride with that upright riding position?
What is up with that stem, it seems so "acute"?
It's a nice bike. How's it ride with that upright riding position?
What is up with that stem, it seems so "acute"?
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06-22-22, 10:27 AM
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-----
the Campag Nr. 621 stops on the top tube are not OEM either
the way they have the brakes set up there is no quick release
expect the Cinelli stem to have a clamp of 26.4mm while the moustache pattern bar likely has a centre of 25.4mm; hope a shim was fitted rather than just clamping down...
the unmarked rims are likely a Weinmann product made in Belgium; they may be Alesa brand which came with an easily lost blue label and often no stampings
-----
the Campag Nr. 621 stops on the top tube are not OEM either
the way they have the brakes set up there is no quick release
expect the Cinelli stem to have a clamp of 26.4mm while the moustache pattern bar likely has a centre of 25.4mm; hope a shim was fitted rather than just clamping down...
the unmarked rims are likely a Weinmann product made in Belgium; they may be Alesa brand which came with an easily lost blue label and often no stampings
-----
Last edited by juvela; 06-22-22 at 12:16 PM. Reason: addition
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06-22-22, 11:06 AM
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I don't know how these things keep happening. I ended up with a late 1960s Schwinn Paramount. But it's an odd duck.
The serial number (E912) marks it as May 1969 production. By 1969 the only Paramount in production was the P13. And some of what this has are correct for that: the pedals, shifters, headset, crankset, high-flange hubs, all are Campagnolo Record; the calipers are Weinmann centerpulls; the stem looks right also. But it doesn't have any chrome, which would make it a P12. It doesn't have any decals or headbadge either, probably because a PO had rear rack, water bottle and frame pump attachments added (I've never seen any of those on a period Paramount) and then a repaint. The lugs appear to be 1968 pattern. The seat (a Brooks B72) and the rims (no-name 27" alloy Schrader with Presta sleeves, 4-cross lacing) are not standard on either a P12 or P13.
I thought perhaps it was a P11, but that doesn't seem right either, because (a) the production of that stopped in 1968; (b) the bars are alloy mustache, clearly different from the steel upright ones I've seen on verified P11s; (c) P11s have plain flat rattrap pedals, this one has top-line shapely Campy Record steel cage ones. I can't find a source of P11 componentry to reach any firmer conclusions, but the derailleurs (SunTour Cyclone rear, Campagnolo Nuovo Record 0104007 front) date from the early 1980s.
Perhaps it is one of the very last P12s, not assembled until well into 1969, which was then modified in the early 1980s for touring. That's my best guess. But I'd like the opinions of the Paramount Sherpas before deciding what to do with it.
Right side view.
The serial number (E912) marks it as May 1969 production. By 1969 the only Paramount in production was the P13. And some of what this has are correct for that: the pedals, shifters, headset, crankset, high-flange hubs, all are Campagnolo Record; the calipers are Weinmann centerpulls; the stem looks right also. But it doesn't have any chrome, which would make it a P12. It doesn't have any decals or headbadge either, probably because a PO had rear rack, water bottle and frame pump attachments added (I've never seen any of those on a period Paramount) and then a repaint. The lugs appear to be 1968 pattern. The seat (a Brooks B72) and the rims (no-name 27" alloy Schrader with Presta sleeves, 4-cross lacing) are not standard on either a P12 or P13.
I thought perhaps it was a P11, but that doesn't seem right either, because (a) the production of that stopped in 1968; (b) the bars are alloy mustache, clearly different from the steel upright ones I've seen on verified P11s; (c) P11s have plain flat rattrap pedals, this one has top-line shapely Campy Record steel cage ones. I can't find a source of P11 componentry to reach any firmer conclusions, but the derailleurs (SunTour Cyclone rear, Campagnolo Nuovo Record 0104007 front) date from the early 1980s.
Perhaps it is one of the very last P12s, not assembled until well into 1969, which was then modified in the early 1980s for touring. That's my best guess. But I'd like the opinions of the Paramount Sherpas before deciding what to do with it.
Right side view.
06-22-22, 12:17 PM
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06-23-22, 06:59 PM
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It gets Odder.
I've looked the bike over more closely, and it's even odder than I first thought. It has more braze-ons than I originally noticed, including for the front derailleur and downtube shifter bosses. None of them were standard for '68 -' 69, though I've heard Schwinn would kit out your Paramount with whatever you wanted and would pay for. Not sure the pedal threading; though they looked identical, and should have been identical, the (Campy Record) crankset refused to accept any of the other pedals I had on hand, including other Campagnolo Records. The serial number is stamped on the rear dropout; is that common for a Paramount? The lugs look right, the geometry is right. I can't tell if it had chrome fork socks; it is definitely a repaint, but there are few scratches on the paint and none where the chroming would be, so unless I scratch off the paint myself I won't know. I can feel holes under the head tube reflective tape, where the headbadge screws should be, so that seems right.
It apparently had a front rack or, more likely, a front fender at one time; there's a screw shaft broken off in one of the dropout eyelets. It was overshifting the largest rear cog and not reaching the smallest, and adjustment didn't help, until I realized the derailleur cage itself was bent inwards. [I fixed it, with technical skill and precision, by grabbing the cage and brute-force-bending it outwards. Wouldn't try that with a Simplex...] What I thought from the pictures was a clear chainstay cover was in fact a very old piece of duct tape. I dreaded what I would find underneath it, but -- after several hours alternating Goo-Gone and scraping with popsicle sticks -- it turned out to be pristine.
On the plus side, all the bearings spin smooth as wet ice, and the tires hold air. Not a speck of rust anywhere. The rims have no markings but must be at least decent; the spoke holes are lined with ferrules. Once I true the wheels, I will take it out for a run and report.
It apparently had a front rack or, more likely, a front fender at one time; there's a screw shaft broken off in one of the dropout eyelets. It was overshifting the largest rear cog and not reaching the smallest, and adjustment didn't help, until I realized the derailleur cage itself was bent inwards. [I fixed it, with technical skill and precision, by grabbing the cage and brute-force-bending it outwards. Wouldn't try that with a Simplex...] What I thought from the pictures was a clear chainstay cover was in fact a very old piece of duct tape. I dreaded what I would find underneath it, but -- after several hours alternating Goo-Gone and scraping with popsicle sticks -- it turned out to be pristine.
On the plus side, all the bearings spin smooth as wet ice, and the tires hold air. Not a speck of rust anywhere. The rims have no markings but must be at least decent; the spoke holes are lined with ferrules. Once I true the wheels, I will take it out for a run and report.
Last edited by Zumkopf; 06-23-22 at 07:06 PM.
06-23-22, 09:53 PM
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I had a bicycle book back in the '80's, I think it was "Ballentine's Ultimate bicycle book" that had a full page illustration of a Paramount with those tourist bars and an English saddlebag on. I had a '72 Paramount that i was racing and couldn't imagine anyone doing that to a Paramount. Now, I'm riding a Cross Check that wants to be that bike! Makes perfect sense for touring and casual exploring ......
Last edited by gorillimo; 06-23-22 at 10:10 PM.
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06-23-22, 10:23 PM
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I've looked the bike over more closely, and it's even odder than I first thought. It has more braze-ons than I originally noticed, including for the front derailleur and downtube shifter bosses. None of them were standard for '68 -' 69, though I've heard Schwinn would kit out your Paramount with whatever you wanted and would pay for. Not sure the pedal threading; though they looked identical, and should have been identical, the (Campy Record) crankset refused to accept any of the other pedals I had on hand, including other Campagnolo Records. The serial number is stamped on the rear dropout; is that common for a Paramount? The lugs look right, the geometry is right. I can't tell if it had chrome fork socks; it is definitely a repaint, but there are few scratches on the paint and none where the chroming would be, so unless I scratch off the paint myself I won't know. I can feel holes under the head tube reflective tape, where the headbadge screws should be, so that seems right.
It apparently had a front rack or, more likely, a front fender at one time; there's a screw shaft broken off in one of the dropout eyelets. It was overshifting the largest rear cog and not reaching the smallest, and adjustment didn't help, until I realized the derailleur cage itself was bent inwards. [I fixed it, with technical skill and precision, by grabbing the cage and brute-force-bending it outwards. Wouldn't try that with a Simplex...] What I thought from the pictures was a clear chainstay cover was in fact a very old piece of duct tape. I dreaded what I would find underneath it, but -- after several hours alternating Goo-Gone and scraping with popsicle sticks -- it turned out to be pristine.
On the plus side, all the bearings spin smooth as wet ice, and the tires hold air. Not a speck of rust anywhere. The rims have no markings but must be at least decent; the spoke holes are lined with ferrules. Once I true the wheels, I will take it out for a run and report.
It apparently had a front rack or, more likely, a front fender at one time; there's a screw shaft broken off in one of the dropout eyelets. It was overshifting the largest rear cog and not reaching the smallest, and adjustment didn't help, until I realized the derailleur cage itself was bent inwards. [I fixed it, with technical skill and precision, by grabbing the cage and brute-force-bending it outwards. Wouldn't try that with a Simplex...] What I thought from the pictures was a clear chainstay cover was in fact a very old piece of duct tape. I dreaded what I would find underneath it, but -- after several hours alternating Goo-Gone and scraping with popsicle sticks -- it turned out to be pristine.
On the plus side, all the bearings spin smooth as wet ice, and the tires hold air. Not a speck of rust anywhere. The rims have no markings but must be at least decent; the spoke holes are lined with ferrules. Once I true the wheels, I will take it out for a run and report.
Nothing really that odd about any of this IMO, at over or around 50 years old, it has just kept doing what it was built to do, ride.
Obviously it may have undergone some changes or was actually pretty special when it was built, either way, you have one of the best that was offered at the time, handbuilt right here and cool as heck, again in IMO.
This is all on the plus side.
06-24-22, 07:46 AM
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I agree, this is a unique Paramount find which was tastefully modified at some point. It could easily be transformed back into a racer and decaled. Paramount head badges, on the other hand, can be challenging and expensive these days.
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06-24-22, 12:05 PM
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My take? It's a "tourist" Paramount. It's called a P11 in the 1968 catalog (and before that as well, I believe) and a P15 from 1970 on. It does not appear in the 1969 catalog, at least not the one I could find quickly on-line, for who knows what reason. But the geometry looks identical or very close to identical to my 1967 P11.
I also think it is a respray. I think that because of the color, the absence of any decals, and the braze-ons. The absence of decals is self-explanatory. From the catalogs, it does not appear that silver/grey was an available Schwinn color in 1969 (they had not introduced the Grey Ghost krate yet). Also, the rack mounts on the seat stays and the bottle cage mount on the down tube were not 1969 issue. It looks like yours also has braze-ons on the downtube for the shift levers (hard to tell for sure from here); if so, those, too, would be anachronistic for a 1969 Paramount and likely added during a resparay. My guess that it was repainted, perhas in the late 1970s, at which point the extra braze-ons were added and the lugs and stay and for ends were painted (but no new decals were affixed). Whether the chrome was removed first or just painted over, only removing the paint from those places would reveal. I'd advise against it. As for the headbadge, who knows what happened to it, but it appears it disappeared before or at the time of the respray and the screw holes filled..
Anyway, that's my opinion, and it's worth every penny you're paying for it. It's a fine rider, but a museum piece it ain't. But you knew that.
I also think it is a respray. I think that because of the color, the absence of any decals, and the braze-ons. The absence of decals is self-explanatory. From the catalogs, it does not appear that silver/grey was an available Schwinn color in 1969 (they had not introduced the Grey Ghost krate yet). Also, the rack mounts on the seat stays and the bottle cage mount on the down tube were not 1969 issue. It looks like yours also has braze-ons on the downtube for the shift levers (hard to tell for sure from here); if so, those, too, would be anachronistic for a 1969 Paramount and likely added during a resparay. My guess that it was repainted, perhas in the late 1970s, at which point the extra braze-ons were added and the lugs and stay and for ends were painted (but no new decals were affixed). Whether the chrome was removed first or just painted over, only removing the paint from those places would reveal. I'd advise against it. As for the headbadge, who knows what happened to it, but it appears it disappeared before or at the time of the respray and the screw holes filled..
Anyway, that's my opinion, and it's worth every penny you're paying for it. It's a fine rider, but a museum piece it ain't. But you knew that.
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