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DIY Bike Fitting for Track

Old 12-08-18, 08:44 PM
  #126  
carleton
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Originally Posted by krispenhartung View Post
Here's the new 130mm stem....it doesn't look at extreme as I thought it would, and still well within the 50mm UCI regulation for endurance. The distance between the forward most tip of my bars and the vertical axle plane is approx. 45mm. Later today I will be shooting new video and taking measurements based on this change and the saddle height change. Should be interesting!

So far, so good!
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Old 12-08-18, 09:51 PM
  #127  
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Judging from the looks of it, the heels of your hands will be right over your front hub. This places your forward weight right over the front axle giving you a more neutral steering feel. If your hands were further back before, it will actually slow your steering down a bit, so be prepared for that, but things will be more stable for you at speed because of it.
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Old 12-09-18, 01:26 PM
  #128  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
For the test where you use the 130mm stem, please use the bars used in the photo above.

When testing, it's easier to just change 1 thing at a time to see how things are working out.
Ok, here are the results. This feels really good! Carleton, you are a genius! :-) I don't even think I want to swap the bars out now. This is also with the saddle raised approx. 1.5cm. i don't think I can get any higher without my hips starting to rock a bit and put too much pressure on my soft parts.

Slow-Mo video here showing the full pedal stroke: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1LN...kweyQEChXiZ3_L
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Old 12-09-18, 07:47 PM
  #129  
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Originally Posted by krispenhartung View Post
Ok, here are the results. This feels really good! Carleton, you are a genius! :-) I don't even think I want to swap the bars out now. This is also with the saddle raised approx. 1.5cm. i don't think I can get any higher without my hips starting to rock a bit and put too much pressure on my soft parts.

Slow-Mo video here showing the full pedal stroke: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1LN...kweyQEChXiZ3_L
Thatís awesome!

It looks much better to the eye and Iím sure that the numbers say so as well.

Iím glad to have helped!
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Old 12-09-18, 07:51 PM
  #130  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post


Thatís awesome!

It looks much better to the eye and Iím sure that the numbers say so as well.

Iím glad to have helped!
Yup! Thank you! I will be making similar changes to my back up track bike, which I use mainly for training, but using some 40cm Easton drop bars instead of the Scattos --- mainly because I am using this bike on my trainer most of the time and I'd like a more comfortable bar for 60-90 min rides. The Scattos get draining after an hour.
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Old 12-09-18, 08:17 PM
  #131  
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Probably could still go a bit longer...
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Old 12-09-18, 08:57 PM
  #132  
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Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
Probably could still go a bit longer...


Yeah. I agree. I think his fit is now on the shorter side of OK. Roadies and enduros like that compact setup. Maybe itís comfortable.

Maybe turn the stem down to get another almost-centimeter of reach or get a 140mm stem.

For the next frame, I would definitely pick one with at least 2-3cm more reach.

But, itís much better than before right now.
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Old 12-09-18, 09:03 PM
  #133  
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I think roadie fits are basically, ďNear 100% of weight on the butt. Little to no weight on the hands.Ē This definitely allows for very long rides/races.

Track racing is closer to time trialing than road racing. Weight can go forward. Youíll have to strengthen the arms, neck, and back some...but youíll need those to be stronger anyway to lift up those trophies, wear those medals, and rock those jerseys
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Old 12-09-18, 09:13 PM
  #134  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
I think roadie fits are basically, ďNear 100% of weight on the butt. Little to no weight on the hands.Ē This definitely allows for very long rides/races.

Track racing is closer to time trialing than road racing. Weight can go forward. Youíll have to strengthen the arms, neck, and back some...but youíll need those to be stronger anyway to lift up those trophies, wear those medals, and rock those jerseys
I need strong arms for all the crap that I attempt to carry in a single load to the infield (without a wagon, mind you!) -- bike, extra wheels, rollers, gear bag. I look like a vagabond.
Seriously though, being used to the road, I'm going to sit on this new setup for a while and let it burn in. Right now, I don't do any matched sprints, flying 200, etc -- just the endurance events, Keirin, and 500m on my drops. I do the 2K with a whole different setup.
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Old 12-09-18, 10:41 PM
  #135  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
I think roadie fits are basically, ďNear 100% of weight on the butt. Little to no weight on the hands.Ē This definitely allows for very long rides/races.

Track racing is closer to time trialing than road racing. Weight can go forward. Youíll have to strengthen the arms, neck, and back some...but youíll need those to be stronger anyway to lift up those trophies, wear those medals, and rock those jerseys
Its definitely more weight on the butt than the hands, effectively should be able to take your hands off the bars and not lurch forward, and track only has to be comfortable for a minute or so if we're talking sprint
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Old 12-09-18, 10:42 PM
  #136  
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The standing start is key to the 500m. You cannot nail the standing start if your bars are too close. Youíll be constricted, like changing clothes in an airplane bathroom.

Both the Keirin and 500m are less 1 minute each (if you donít count the paced windup of the Keirin). Donít look for comfort on the bike in those events. Look for aero gains and power production, at the expense of comfort.

Learn from my mistake. I spent SEVEN seasons riding 56-58cm bike...when I should have been on a 61cm.

I have a lot of real regrets about that. When I trained my hardest, I was on the worst fitting bikes...and vice-versa. And the times and speeds were similar. Imagine if I had the right fit early on?

Do not get hung up on numbers.

Read that sentence again.

Just add more when you need more and remove when you need less. Declaring what sizes you are and are not can be a huge problem. It was certainly in my case.
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Old 12-09-18, 10:53 PM
  #137  
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Originally Posted by krispenhartung View Post
Ok, here are the results. This feels really good! Carleton, you are a genius! :-) I don't even think I want to swap the bars out now. This is also with the saddle raised approx. 1.5cm. i don't think I can get any higher without my hips starting to rock a bit and put too much pressure on my soft parts.

Slow-Mo video here showing the full pedal stroke: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1LN...kweyQEChXiZ3_L
Watching the video I reckon you can probably come forward a bit with your saddle, as everyone finds out you can probably go for a fair bit bigger bike than you think.

Bad comparison aside, your torso angle isn't drastically different than my resting in the drops roadie position, a bit longer/higher but not as extreme as you will be able to hold for pure track work
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Old 12-16-18, 07:33 AM
  #138  
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Fitting opinions from experienced sprinters would be appreciated. What do you think of this fit position? ( for sprint). Itís long but actually surprisingly comfortable and keeps my head below my shoulders. It also leaves room for how I pull myself forward on the saddle when I push on really hard. Have a tendency to try and open my hip angle as I fatigue which scrunches me up. This position should keep me more aero when this happens.

Any problems from going for arms extended this far forward that I should be aware of? On a Dolan DF4 this will likely have my hands about 3 cm ahead of the axle( also I think the camera angle not being perfectly side on may make this look slightly longer than it is).

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Old 12-16-18, 05:32 PM
  #139  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Personally, I don't see the Sphinx as being a faster position than drops. I think the more aggressive Sphinx position with the hands on the "tops" as opposed to where the hoods would be, is more of a relaxing position, taking stress off of the arms, shoulders, and neck and lowering the heart rate a bit.
Heh, yup, that's me.

Faster? It depends. I've done a bit of rough testing for me, personally, and it tests faster than riding in the drops. This is not the case for everybody. Not everybody needs or wants this, or is good at it, or has the physiology, riding style, or flexibility for it. That's okay. I've seen some terrible sphinx positions out there that make me cringe, but hey, there are plenty of drops positions out there that make me cringe too.

I find the sphinx to be a way to combine high cadence and output pedaling with a relaxed upper body. It's a wide-elbow pursuit position. Unlike sprinters, our enduro races aren't just the length of a half decent yawn. In 40km, we pedal in a lot of different ways - and there are a lot of dynamic needs on the bike. Setting up handlebars is all about balancing different needs; the drops need to be an a position that optimize a sprint, and cruising, and we also need a position to accommodate moments in races when we are essentially pursuiting.

I could set up drop bars that mimic my sphinx position but then I'd miss out on the lower, torquier position and the greater stability that comes with where I put the bottoms of my drops. I have daydreamt and sketched the perfect enduro handlebar - nobody makes it. Nobody comes close.
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Old 12-16-18, 06:41 PM
  #140  
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Originally Posted by Kaben View Post


Fitting opinions from experienced sprinters would be appreciated. What do you think of this fit position? ( for sprint). It’s long but actually surprisingly comfortable and keeps my head below my shoulders. It also leaves room for how I pull myself forward on the saddle when I push on really hard. Have a tendency to try and open my hip angle as I fatigue which scrunches me up. This position should keep me more aero when this happens.

Any problems from going for arms extended this far forward that I should be aware of? On a Dolan DF4 this will likely have my hands about 3 cm ahead of the axle( also I think the camera angle not being perfectly side on may make this look slightly longer than it is).

That position looks fast as hell...especially if you train yourself to (safely) drop your head* on the straights for extra significant aero gains.

*This is an advanced technique that I'd only advise using on a track that with which you are completely familiar and with the best of judgement. You can see top riders doing it all the time when you look for it.

(this is not a bike throw):





Be very careful trying this...turns 1 and 3 can come up very fast on you at high speeds and you can run up track and maybe wreck and take others out. It requires lots of practice. I never got good at it such that it became habit. My head was in the wind like a dog out of the passenger-side window...floppy tongue and all

Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
Heh, yup, that's me.

Faster? It depends. I've done a bit of rough testing for me, personally, and it tests faster than riding in the drops. This is not the case for everybody. Not everybody needs or wants this, or is good at it, or has the physiology, riding style, or flexibility for it. That's okay. I've seen some terrible sphinx positions out there that make me cringe, but hey, there are plenty of drops positions out there that make me cringe too.

I find the sphinx to be a way to combine high cadence and output pedaling with a relaxed upper body. It's a wide-elbow pursuit position. Unlike sprinters, our enduro races aren't just the length of a half decent yawn. In 40km, we pedal in a lot of different ways - and there are a lot of dynamic needs on the bike. Setting up handlebars is all about balancing different needs; the drops need to be an a position that optimize a sprint, and cruising, and we also need a position to accommodate moments in races when we are essentially pursuiting.

I could set up drop bars that mimic my sphinx position but then I'd miss out on the lower, torquier position and the greater stability that comes with where I put the bottoms of my drops. I have daydreamt and sketched the perfect enduro handlebar - nobody makes it. Nobody comes close.
Great insights there.

Last edited by carleton; 12-16-18 at 06:45 PM.
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Old 12-16-18, 06:52 PM
  #141  
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I recall Gleatzer riding one of his sub-1min kilos almost 100% with his head down. He swerved like a drunk man in the turns, but it was obvious that keeping the head down as soon as possible through the end was the plan. He didn't look up, only at the boards in front of his wheel.

I would guess that he counted pedal strokes or looked at some marker to know when to expect the turns. Not sure.
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Old 08-25-21, 01:30 PM
  #142  
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Iím in the market for a new frame and thinking of going longer.
Im not a Sprinter though scratch, points, pursuit.
whatís the general opinion. This was with resistance probable around 300-350 Watts.
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Old 08-25-21, 02:18 PM
  #143  
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If I were you I'd see about trying out a longer stem before buying a new frame, even if it puts you over the +5cm UCI rule. (are you subject to the UCI geometry rules in your racing? If not, you could maybe make this frame work, although the handling will start getting strange after a certain point)
I agree that you appear "scrunched up" to me, even for a mass start position.
You certainly have stack-height room to go to a larger frame.
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Old 08-25-21, 02:28 PM
  #144  
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Originally Posted by bicievino View Post
If I were you I'd see about trying out a longer stem before buying a new frame, even if it puts you over the +5cm UCI rule. (are you subject to the UCI geometry rules in your racing? If not, you could maybe make this frame work, although the handling will start getting strange after a certain point)
I agree that you appear "scrunched up" to me, even for a mass start position.
You certainly have stack-height room to go to a larger frame.
im already on 120mm and 80mm reach bars even with a new frame with a longer top tube I was considering a 130mm stem and moving from 36 c to c bars to 33 c to c
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Old 08-25-21, 03:13 PM
  #145  
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Originally Posted by m@tty View Post
im already on 120mm and 80mm reach bars even with a new frame with a longer top tube I was considering a 130mm stem and moving from 36 c to c bars to 33 c to c
I mean, reach is reach, right? It doesn't particularly matter how you get there (except insofar as it pertains to UCI geometry restrictions and at some point, handling). Up to 150mm stems are pretty easy to find, so you could test that out pretty cheaply.
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Old 08-25-21, 03:25 PM
  #146  
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Originally Posted by bicievino View Post
I mean, reach is reach, right? It doesn't particularly matter how you get there (except insofar as it pertains to UCI geometry restrictions and at some point, handling). Up to 150mm stems are pretty easy to find, so you could test that out pretty cheaply.
UCI restrictions would matter for masters. Hence the question about frames not stem length and Iím hard pushed to find anything over 130mm in the uk
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Old 08-25-21, 06:33 PM
  #147  
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Originally Posted by m@tty View Post
UCI restrictions would matter for masters. Hence the question about frames not stem length and Iím hard pushed to find anything over 130mm in the uk
Right, sorry if I was unclear.
I wasn't suggesting that be a long-term solution, just one that would help you determine how much reach might be best for you, so you aren't buying a frame and then realizing you needed even more reach than you had thought...

For what it's worth, the Zipp service course SL is available in up to 150mm.
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Old 08-26-21, 07:12 AM
  #148  
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3T also offers stems up to 150.

That said, yeah, I think you should go with a longer and taller frame.
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Old 08-26-21, 07:47 AM
  #149  
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I've been told bigger is better
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Old 08-26-21, 06:59 PM
  #150  
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Originally Posted by m@tty View Post
Iím in the market for a new frame and thinking of going longer.
Im not a Sprinter though scratch, points, pursuit.
whatís the general opinion. This was with resistance probable around 300-350 Watts.
One thing about the Dolan frames is that until you get to their biggest frame, the head tube doesn't really increase in height. So my 57 cm frame still has a 12 cm head tube, which is the same height head tube I have on my road bike. Seat tube happens to be 50 cm c-t as well.

This means you can size up substantially without the frame getting taller. It just gets longer.

My preferred seat tube length is 40 cm, yes forty, I want an effective top tube length of 56.5 cm with a 75.5 deg STA - that's how my two road bikes are set up. For track I have a stock 57 cm Dolan. 50 cm c-t, 12 cm head tube, 57 cm top tube. Perfect. Except the STA is only 74.5 so my saddle is further back than I want, and the reach, once I'm "on the rivet", is a bit short.
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