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Orthodoxy Part 2

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Orthodoxy Part 2

Old 12-27-20, 09:14 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by jonwvara View Post
I'm sure that many longtime members of this forum were disturbed to learn of a possible misinterpretation of the serial numbering of Centurion brand bicycles. This in itself is bad enough, but it gets worse. Please bear with me, because this will take a moment to explain.

I am not a devout Christian, but have been a lifelong celebrant of a religious holiday known as "Christmas." One aspect of this holiday involves the exchange of gifts among friends and family members. In one such exchange, I recently acquired a well-regarded nonfiction book from a major publisher, titled Mill Town. Written by a former resident of Mexico, Maine, it examines the long-term health and environmental effects of paper manufacturing in the town of Rumford, Maine.

On page two of the book, the following sentence appears:

"In the deep grottoes of the past, the great polar ice cap melted into glaciers, and its calving mass crawled north, carving long, deep ruts that became the lakes and rivers of Maine." [italics mine]

Reading the above filled me with surprise. I had always believed that the continental ice sheets of North America's last glaciation had moved from north to south, not south to north. And indeed, subsequent research seems to confirm that my original concept was correct. As unlikely as it seems, it appears that the quoted sentence is--and it gives me no pleasure to write these words, not wanting to cause unhappiness to the author or editors associated with the book's production--flatly incorrect.

This is knowledge that we will all have to live with from now on. I hope and pray that there are no other books out there that contain factual errors. But sadly, that possibility cannot be ruled out.

Be safe, everyone.
Whatever you’re smoking, I want some.
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Old 12-27-20, 09:27 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by RobbieTunes View Post
Whatever you’re smoking, I want some.
Not me. Sounds like a bad trip.
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Old 12-28-20, 09:01 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by iab View Post
Clearly, it also states "calving", which is quite the opposite of melting. All in all, it is a ****ed-up sentence.
I wouldn't get too emotionally attached to the author's statement. It's part of the flexibility of language in literature. Both calving and melting are ways that the ice sheet retreats. Typically, we think of calving as occurring in lakes, fjords, or embayments for ice that meets water. Land ice certainly fractures and calves, but it does not produce icebergs in the same way.

Originally Posted by conspiratemus1 View Post
Very much, thanks. One of the hallmarks of glaciation near my neck of the woods is the U-shaped valley with hanging waterfalls. The Finger Lakes region has some excellent examples, but there are less striking ones along the Niagara Escarpment. In more mountainous regions like the "Canadian" Rockies (defined as extending south to Marias Pass, Montana, so including Glacier Park) and the western shore of Newfoundland they make spectacular landforms. These started out as V-shaped valleys but we see them today as U-shaped. I wasn't around to eye-witness any of that. So were the valleys scoured out by the weight of the advancing ice pushing the rocks ahead of it? ... or flooded out by the torrential meltwater during retreat? Until the ice retreated enough to open the St. Lawrence valley, "Lake Iroquois" (now Lakes Ontario, Erie, and part of Huron) drained out through the Finger Lakes to the Atlantic via the Susquehanna River. That's a heck of a lot of water. I understand there is some controversy around the shaping of these valleys and I'd value your thoughts.
Glacial Lake Iroquois, which is that lake's formal name, had multiple drainage points, but those varied through time. The weight of the ice sheet compresses the deep earth (asthenosphere) causing it to flow. This changes the shape of the land surface. It's part of earth maintaining its gravitational and inertial balance in the solar system (primarily with the Sun and Moon, but affected to a lesser degree by Jupiter and the other planets). As the ice sheet retreats, that spatial configuration changes, so the drainage direction changes. The Great Lakes region is relatively flat, so it doesn't take much to change the direction of water flow. The Mississippi, Susquehanna, Hudson, and other rivers have been southern arteries for the ice sheet at different times. Now, the water from the Great Lakes goes out the St. Lawrence.

U-shaped valleys are a result of the interaction of glaciers with the land surface. The glaciers erode downward through block removal, termed "plucking."

There are valleys carved by outburst floods from the glacial lakes. Notably, the Channeled Scablands of Idaho and Washington State result from the ice dam at Glacial Lake Missoula failing. These types of erosional features are different from U-shaped valleys.
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Old 12-28-20, 10:34 AM
  #29  
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Thanks much. In addition to addressing my question, you supplied this take-home message.
Originally Posted by TimmyT View Post
. . .
Glacial Lake Iroquois, which is that lake's formal name, had multiple drainage points, but those varied through time. The weight of the ice sheet compresses the deep earth (asthenosphere) causing it to flow. This changes the shape of the land surface. It's part of earth maintaining its gravitational and inertial balance in the solar system (primarily with the Sun and Moon, but affected to a lesser degree by Jupiter and the other planets). As the ice sheet retreats, that spatial configuration changes, so the drainage direction changes.. . ..
I appreciate your success in distilling for a layperson a complex technical subject while still retaining enough detail to sink one’s teeth into it and stimulate curiosity and wonder.
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Old 12-28-20, 11:01 AM
  #30  
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I assumed this thread was in jest and posted accordingly. Now apparently it has turned serious, which leaves me in a bad situation. Please next time let us know when a thread orientation changes.
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Old 12-28-20, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Reynolds View Post
I assumed this thread was in jest and posted accordingly. Now apparently it has turned serious, which leaves me in a bad situation. Please next time let us know when a thread orientation changes.
This thread was started in jest obviously.
Some folks insist on checking sense of humor at the door. I always figured that glaciers flow downhill and recede uphill because - mountains - but can see where that would be different when ice covered a great portion of the Northern Hemisphere before there was such a thing as North and South. I'll probably get my head bit off for being so non scientific. By the way:
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Old 12-28-20, 11:44 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by FBOATSB View Post
This thread was started in jest obviously.
Some folks insist on checking sense of humor at the door. I always figured that glaciers flow downhill and recede uphill because - mountains - but can see where that would be different when ice covered a great portion of the Northern Hemisphere before there was such a thing as North and South. I'll probably get my head bit off for being so non scientific. By the way:
IBTM
Glaciers just flow down their potential surface, which is primarily driven by the surface of the ice. When we get to things like climate change and the ice sheets, I wear my professional hat. Normally, people are curious and want to learn.
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Old 12-28-20, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by TimmyT View Post
Glaciers just flow down their potential surface, which is primarily driven by the surface of the ice. When we get to things like climate change and the ice sheets, I wear my professional hat. Normally, people are curious and want to learn.
Thanks. I was not referring to your very informative posts by the way.
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Old 12-28-20, 12:55 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Reynolds View Post
I assumed this thread was in jest and posted accordingly. Now apparently it has turned serious, which leaves me in a bad situation. Please next time let us know when a thread orientation changes.
No worries. I knew you were just kidding and not trolling.
Some situations are irresistible. The late storyteller and radio host Stuart MacLean had one of his hapless characters, Dave, imagining his own death from being run over by a diaper truck. It wasn’t being dead that worried him so much as the certain knowledge that when the minister at the funeral got to the part about Dave having been taken from us so cruelly someone was sure to snicker, which would grow to a flood of uproarious laughter. (As I’m doing now.)

Life’s like that, sometimes. Don’t sweat it.
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Old 12-28-20, 01:00 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by FBOATSB View Post
This thread was started in jest obviously.
Yes, it was indeed started in jest, and probably ill-advisedly--I was trying to redirect my annoyance with the "Orthodoxy Part 1" thread. My annoyance with that one has only grown since then.

That said, it's surprisingly enjoyable to see this turn into glaciology seminar. I have no real training in the area, but have done a lot of glacier travel, have a longstanding interest in glacial landforms, and live a landscape that was heavily glaciated until pretty recently.

So here's a question for someone with real knowledge: I understand that glacial ice does its work of landscape modification both coming and going, as well as through the action of meltwater. But I have always thought that the term "recession" is a little misleading. Even in recession, glaciers typically continue to move forward/downhill, yes? It's just they are melting back a the toe faster than they are advancing? If that's the case, it seems inaccurate to describe a receding glacier--in the case of a continental ice sheet in the northern hemisphere--as moving from south to north. Sure, that's what it looks like, but that not what's really happening, is it? Or is it?
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Old 12-28-20, 09:37 PM
  #36  
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Don’t glaciers “recede” when they melt? That could explain language that implies a northward flow.
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Old 12-28-20, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by RobbieTunes View Post
Don’t glaciers “recede” when they melt? That could explain language that implies a northward flow.
Yes. It's commonly called receding. Ice flow is always away from the high areas, so toward the margin. When the ice sheet mass is out of balance (total melt exceeds snowfall), then the ice sheet recedes. Even if the ice sheet is receding, flow is to the margin.

NB: flow is not always to the south. It is always down the potential, so "downhill." In Maine, that trend is to the southeast.
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Old 12-29-20, 06:42 AM
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Originally Posted by TimmyT View Post
Yes. It's commonly called receding. Ice flow is always away from the high areas, so toward the margin. When the ice sheet mass is out of balance (total melt exceeds snowfall), then the ice sheet recedes. Even if the ice sheet is receding, flow is to the margin.

NB: flow is not always to the south. It is always down the potential, so "downhill." In Maine, that trend is to the southeast.
Great, thanks. I realize that flow isn't always due south in northern-hemisphere continental sheet--that's was an amateur broad-bush generalization on my part.
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Old 12-29-20, 07:01 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by jonwvara View Post
...I hope and pray....

Be safe, everyone.
I'll make an Orthodox believer out of Jon one of these days! Even if he lives on the other side of the Connecticut River!
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Old 12-29-20, 07:24 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by RobbieTunes View Post
Don’t glaciers “recede” when they melt? That could explain language that implies a northward flow.
I know hairlines do. Magically though, a hairline "glacier"appears at the bottom of the face when the hairline recedes. I guess it appears to show that ice production is still possible.
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Old 12-29-20, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by jonwvara View Post
...I was trying to redirect my annoyance with the "Orthodoxy Part 1" thread.
I've looked in that thread twice, but I don't have the patience to read everything or bother formulating a response. 2020 is clearly driving people nuts.
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Old 12-29-20, 04:10 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by TimmyT View Post
I've looked in that thread twice, but I don't have the patience to read everything or bother formulating a response. 2020 is clearly driving people nuts.
Yeah, things are definitely better here in Part 2, where there are glaciers and stuff.
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Old 12-29-20, 09:27 PM
  #43  
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Just say'n....


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Old 12-29-20, 09:47 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by bark_eater View Post
Just say'n....


Ooooh! A nice-sized erratic.

DD
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Old 12-30-20, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Drillium Dude View Post
Ooooh! A nice-sized erratic.

DD
Originally Posted by bark_eater View Post
Just say'n....


BUT which Japanese trading company delivered that specific erratic, and can you interpret the serial number in the lower righthand side?


Possibly T-Mar can assist even if Hummer ​​​​​​​has an alternative theory.
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Old 12-30-20, 08:41 AM
  #46  
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Old 12-30-20, 09:22 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by bark_eater View Post
Just say'n....


Is that the Madison Boulder?
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Old 12-30-20, 09:30 AM
  #48  
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yep. stolen image of a rock......
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Old 12-30-20, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by jonwvara View Post
Is that the Madison Boulder?
The OG Madison Square Garden
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Old 12-30-20, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Ferrouscious View Post
The OG Madison Square Garden
No, no, no, no---- Nooooooooooooo!

New Hampshire's Madison Boulder.
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