merziac

And now we do.

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...eed-forum.html

The Golden Boy 

No, apparently the primary person hung up on semantics is Wildwood , and not "too many" others.

One may say the same for high wheelers, or for bone shakers or for 3 or 4 speed pre-war bikes, or pre-war bikes in general, Schwinns, boom bikes, Italian bikes, French bikes, Japanese bikes, bikes with chain stay mounted brakes, Russian bikes, Croatian bikes, bikes with center pulls, Romanian bikes, bikes with toe clips, Indian bikes, English bikes, Harley Davidson bikes, constructeur bikes, single speed bikes, sport touring bikes, or klunkers, or Raleighs or Canadian bikes or Merkx bikes, bikes with cheap tires, or bikes with flat bars, or bikes made by other companies other than what they're branded with, or bikes with clipless pedals, or touring bikes or pretty bikes, bikes with long chainstays racing bikes or bikes with turkey wings, or aluminum bikes, or bikes with cantis, bikes with short chainstays, or bikes with bags, or ugly bikes, or bike with drop bars, or bikes with braze ons, or bikes with stem shifters or bike with reflectors or Takaras, or lugged bikes, or fillet brazed bikes, or bikes with racks or welded bikes or clean bikes, or bikes without bottle cages, or bikes with sidepulls or dirty bikes or... It's ******g nonsense. The premise of this forum is:
7/8/9/10 speed bikes get just as much traction as any other bikes- more than any high wheeler thread. But apparently, they're not drama princesses.


You can believe that, but in the meantime, that siphons those bikes away from people who would otherwise look at them. Either intentionally or unintentionally. I will tell you that I would NEVER gotten the hair up my ass to upgrade any of my bikes to 10 speed if not for the people here. I would NOT have gone looking specifically for upgraded bikes. I would not have my favorite bike.

Once again- this is is counter to the interests of a large population of the viewers and posters within this forum- as many, many people have "upgraded" their "vintage" bikes- hence the 'retro roadies.' By the removal of that thread by administrator and moderator staff, that means those bikes are NO LONGER WELCOME HERE. I'd venture to say the VAST majority of the regulars and visitors of this forum are not purists.

• Quote:

  I agree with some commenters above that road bikes from the 90s and 00s are somewhat orphaned currently.
  No more so than anything else- these bikes and those components are valued and inherently a part of of the C&V forum.
• Quote:

  It should not be assumed that qualification for the new forum also disqualifies from the old forum. I enjoy the fluidity of the various sub-forums-- 80s component topics on mechanics forum as well as C&V, vintage touring topics on the touring forum as well as C&V, commuting... you get the gist. In the end, it's all subjective and situational.
  It clearly is- if a thread has to do with bikes with 7/8/9 speed drive trains- it is being moved to the "appropriate" forum. Meaning it is no longer here, and therefore no longer welcome here, thus no longer qualified to be in the C&V forum.
• Quote:

  A 1983 Univega Specialissima with brifters is C&V, and having brifters does not suddenly transform it into a 1999 Klein. Brifters would be just another component I might upgrade on what is otherwise a C&V bike, big deal. And if I do, I logically expect to continue posting about that bike here.
  That is not what is happening- Look at the RetroRoadies thread.
• Quote:

  Perhaps we ought to rename the new forum to avoid confusion with what qualifies. How about "early brifter-era road bikes", or something like that?.
• Quote:

  For the sake of continuity, with the understanding that the new sub-forum might be experimental, I say leave old threads where they are, unless some compelling reason arises.
  The entire premise is... well... stupid. Indexing is a much better dividing line. And that would be about as stupid.

panzerwagon 

I think you’ve entirely misunderstood the larger point I was making, and perhaps I was unclear. I was not asking for this change, nor do I prefer the semantic choices made. The chosen point of division is clearly very subjective and means different things to different people. I indicated that if the need for this is so great, it might be worth a try. What can I say, I try to keep an open mind. And in the event it’s a foregone conclusion, I suggested ways to minimize restriction and disruption to the existing community. Your ire is misdirected— I’m not in charge here.

The Golden Boy 

I was merely addressing your points- I understand that breaking apart a post does have a tendency to look confrontational... My anger is clearly focused on someone else. I'm pretty sure if I hit "send" on the post I have prepared- it won't be good.

My primary concern is that this arbitrarily creates a divisiveness that was not present until June 2nd.

C&V has historically been an overwhelmingly welcoming and positive community. This change figuratively and literally says to longtime contributing and financially supporting members that their bikes no longer belong here.

(BTW- I missed an important point in my reply to you- your 83 Univega would not belong in C&V- as evidenced by the removal of the Retro roadies thread.)

panzerwagon 

No worries and agreed on all your points. I was unaware until your mention that retro roadies thread had been moved— what a poor choice. Moderators are going to have to make some metaphysical decisions on what makes a c&v bike. Apparently it all boils down to the shifting mechanism employed. Yikes!

merziac

Not if we have anything to say about it, and we should if the poll tells us anything.

I really don't understand how a sweeping faux pas was enacted without more input from the rank and file, do we learn nothing from our day to day exploits here.

I realize that I am relatively new here compared to many but I truly relish and appreciate every interaction, assist, dig, slight and all else, this change will dilute the work we accomplish here.

Road Fan

I hope not. Many of the Retro Roadies entries are 10 sp in the first place. As little sense as it makes to have a 7,8,9 forum in the first place, (what about 8 speed shifting, and what about twist grips, bar ends, DT ratchets, and thumbies? Will stem shifters go into the Dark Forum?

Makes no sense to me, and artificial distinctions are not something we need.

If you want to focus on restorations, how about "Classic and Vintage," "Modernized/Restored Vintage," and "Vintage Internal Gear Hubs?"

Road Fan

I don't want the Mods to decide on such a thing unilaterally. I would like to see an Ad-Hoc Group of Honorary Greybeards (AHGHG) given a case of beer and a Zoom link, to talk together and see if a consensus on definitions and diversity can be reached. One principle should be Don't change anything more than is necessary.

AHGHGQualifications: don't have to like beer, don't have to have beards, don't have to be able to grow a beard, don't have to be honorable, but do have to care about discussions and learning about the older days of biking and some facility with language.

panzerwagon 

Did you just unilaterally decide on who gets to be part of AHGHG? 😬

Road Fan

No, I did not. I unilaterally thought of a way to go forward and have shared it with C&V.

Did my suggestion make you think of anyone specific?

panzerwagon 

Perhaps we should set up a committee to discuss who gets to be on the committee? Sort of like a poll on whether we should have a poll. Can’t get too much of a good thing, you know?

Of course, I am being entirely facetious in this and my previous comment. All this silliness makes my head hurt, that case of beer won’t last me long. (We each get our own case, right? ...right?)

Road Fan

I agree, and am also not in charge here.

I'd like to see the people who requested it to make a posting which "sells" the idea. Siu's post seems to mainly to say "Looky here, we did this for you because you asked!" I would like to see why it is seen as a good idea and what is the improved vision for how CV works, that is enabled by this new idea. If I understood that I might even get on board, or at least cheer the train as it passes me by!

SurferRosa

If I were in charge, my first order of business would be to fix your avatar.



Vote for me!

krakhaus 

Are the mods just totally ignoring this thread? Maybe my 10 speed Mondonico will get their attention.

bikingshearer 

Two points:

1) My preference would be not to have the early brifter forum. I think the ne forum creates an artificial divide. I would prefer a return to how it was set up up to now, In the aternative, I would prefer what has been st up as a forum is made a subfourm or sticky in C&V, please.

2) Everybody, please lighten up. This is not the end of the world, whatever happens. And especially, please lighten up on the Mods. I have little, if any, special insight into the Mod world but I do know that (a) they are not paid, they do this as a service to the bicycling community, and (b) this was done with good, not malicious, intent.

The Mods tried to do something nice. Some of us don't think it works. So say "no, thank you" and maybe ask politely (key word here - "politely") to change back and move on. There are posts here that sound to my ear as though some folks think this was an evil plot aimed at them personally. I'd bet good money that is not the case. I am also quite certain that every one of us has, at some point in our lives, tried to do something nice that went sideways and had a negative unintended consequence. So politely say "no , thank you" like our mothers taught us, politely ask the change be undone or for what you would prefer to see, and stop acting as though the Visigoths are at the gates. Please.

SurferRosa

ok, I will try.


.

Road Fan

After we're done with this thread topic I'll have to show my two Mondos again.

Drillium Dude 

My neck thanks you

DD

bikingshearer 

I dare ya to do that dance for five solid minutes in the middle of the concours at Eroica CA 2021. In fact, I double-dog dare ya.

merziac

So no big deal here, fabulous lugged steel, rock solid foundation of Classic and Vintage regardless of how many speeds that matters not.

SurferRosa

I was just trying to lighten up, but that was dangerously too light. This is how I normally dance:



​​​​​​Actually, I only dance like that to those early '70s BÖC albums. Can't help it. By the way, my hair looks exactly like that.

bikingshearer 

I'm looking forward to seeing you boogie down in Cambria in September.

bark_eater 

Now I'm not going to go to far into other people's intentions or life goals, but It has crossed my mind that if one was a troll purposely orchastrating such divisiveness, there would be a lot of self congratulations going on in that dark little happy place.

merziac

Entirely plausible and hopefully not the case, seems like the move caught fire fairly quickly but we really don't know what dark forces may be at play here, my BS meter always goes off when something like this happens and we can't see behind the curtain.

merziac

I think I would have my pants on if that was "Cities on flame" just in case life decided to imitate art.