Does a more upright position give more power?
#101
Drip, Drip.
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: Southern Ontario
Posts: 1,575
Bikes: Trek Verve E bike, Felt Doctrine 4 XC, Opus Horizon Apex 1
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1034 Post(s)
Liked 193 Times
in
163 Posts
A position where you are as low as possible and evenly distributing your weight at an ideal centre of gravity (hopefully where the bottom bracket is) will offer you the most power. Depending on many different factors such as proportions and where your weight is distributed, this could be anywhere from a neutral to leaning forward position.
Thats not to say that an upright position can't be inefficient, so long as you are riding with your weight out of the saddle and in the crank arms .
Thats not to say that an upright position can't be inefficient, so long as you are riding with your weight out of the saddle and in the crank arms .
#102
climber has-been
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 7,080
Bikes: Scott Addict R1, Felt Z1
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3405 Post(s)
Liked 3,535 Times
in
1,778 Posts
Something to do with reducing the hip angle.
__________________
Ride, Rest, Repeat. ROUVY: terrymorse
Ride, Rest, Repeat. ROUVY: terrymorse
#103
Drip, Drip.
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: Southern Ontario
Posts: 1,575
Bikes: Trek Verve E bike, Felt Doctrine 4 XC, Opus Horizon Apex 1
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1034 Post(s)
Liked 193 Times
in
163 Posts
1 - by being low i didn't mean leaning forward so much. It can have to do with bottom bracket height, saddle height, etc...
2. There are other factors to consider which may open or close your hip angle such as crank arm length. a leaning forward position would probably still offer better power transfer if your abs and stabilizer muscles are able to comfortably support your body without placing an over reliance on your handlebars and saddle as "contact points" this is obviously considering that you're not leaning forward to the point where there is simply not enough weight over the rear axle.
Again, these is an extrenely subjective topic as the human anatomy will vary results and riding position wildly from person to person.
#104
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 3,947
Bikes: Trek 1100 road bike, Roadmaster gravel/commuter/beater mountain bike
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2281 Post(s)
Liked 1,710 Times
in
936 Posts
All I know is, when I put bar ends on my straight bar hybrid, it seemed like I had more power going up hills when I held onto the bar ends than if I was holding onto the bar itself. It may have been all in my head, but it sure felt that way and I use the bar ends when climbing.
#105
climber has-been
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 7,080
Bikes: Scott Addict R1, Felt Z1
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3405 Post(s)
Liked 3,535 Times
in
1,778 Posts
Back to the title of this thread:
This question has been tested at least once, and it produced an answer: Yes.
Test subjects in the "standard sitting upright position" were able to produce 5% higher maximal power than in the "standard racing position".
The article summary states: In some cases when cycling on the road, higher speeds can be attained when sitting upright. This is especially true when cycling uphill when high power must be generated to overcome gravity but the road speed, and hence the power required to overcome air resistance, is relatively low.
Does a more upright position give more power?
This question has been tested at least once, and it produced an answer: Yes.
Test subjects in the "standard sitting upright position" were able to produce 5% higher maximal power than in the "standard racing position".
The article summary states: In some cases when cycling on the road, higher speeds can be attained when sitting upright. This is especially true when cycling uphill when high power must be generated to overcome gravity but the road speed, and hence the power required to overcome air resistance, is relatively low.
__________________
Ride, Rest, Repeat. ROUVY: terrymorse
Ride, Rest, Repeat. ROUVY: terrymorse
#106
Randomhead
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 24,385
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 3,686 Times
in
2,509 Posts
Back to the title of this thread:
This question has been tested at least once, and it produced an answer: Yes.
Does a more upright position give more power?
This question has been tested at least once, and it produced an answer: Yes.
OTOH, it makes some sense, almost everyone climbs in a more upright position. Maybe not as upright as the OP was referencing though.
#107
climber has-been
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 7,080
Bikes: Scott Addict R1, Felt Z1
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3405 Post(s)
Liked 3,535 Times
in
1,778 Posts
#108
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 5,358
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2475 Post(s)
Liked 2,947 Times
in
1,673 Posts
If the maximum power a given rider can generate for 5 minutes is, say, 300 watts, whether on climbs or elsewhere, the theoretical advantage of putting out 5% more power is negated by the fact that the rider would be unable to sustain that power output for the full 5 minutes. Anyone who uses a smart trainer learns that putting out more power exacts a cost that has nothing to do with sitting upright versus in the conventional racing position.
Likes For Cpn_Dunsel:
#110
climber has-been
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 7,080
Bikes: Scott Addict R1, Felt Z1
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3405 Post(s)
Liked 3,535 Times
in
1,778 Posts
If the maximum power a given rider can generate for 5 minutes is, say, 300 watts, whether on climbs or elsewhere, the theoretical advantage of putting out 5% more power is negated by the fact that the rider would be unable to sustain that power output for the full 5 minutes. Anyone who uses a smart trainer learns that putting out more power exacts a cost that has nothing to do with sitting upright versus in the conventional racing position.
A higher 5 minute power may be possible in an upright position. The article hints at that possibility, as it reports the highest VO2max in the upright position.
__________________
Ride, Rest, Repeat. ROUVY: terrymorse
Ride, Rest, Repeat. ROUVY: terrymorse
Likes For terrymorse:
#111
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,385
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1557 Post(s)
Liked 1,732 Times
in
972 Posts
You don't even need to refer to any studies. Just go and look at people riding Pelotons and other stationary bikes:
This is pretty much how most of them have their machines set up. So you know this is the optimal power producing position in the absence of wind drag.
This is pretty much how most of them have their machines set up. So you know this is the optimal power producing position in the absence of wind drag.
#112
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,935
Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3942 Post(s)
Liked 7,277 Times
in
2,940 Posts
So, your (unproven) observation that most Peloton users set up their bikes similar to the advertising photos proves that this position produces the most power? Oh my ...
You don't even need to refer to any studies. Just go and look at people riding Pelotons and other stationary bikes:
This is pretty much how most of them have their machines set up. So you know this is the optimal power producing position in the absence of wind drag.
This is pretty much how most of them have their machines set up. So you know this is the optimal power producing position in the absence of wind drag.
#113
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Posts: 40,865
Bikes: Specialized Tarmac, Canyon Exceed, Specialized Transition, Ellsworth Roots, Ridley Excalibur
Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2952 Post(s)
Liked 3,106 Times
in
1,417 Posts
Peloton riders are well known as the experts in biomechanical efficiency,
Likes For caloso:
#114
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,385
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1557 Post(s)
Liked 1,732 Times
in
972 Posts
Nope. I am saying look at a broad sample of Peloton users, not one particular ad photo (which was for illustration) and see how they set up their machines. You'll notice that they are all reasonably upright like you see in this photo.
#116
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,935
Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3942 Post(s)
Liked 7,277 Times
in
2,940 Posts
#117
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,935
Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3942 Post(s)
Liked 7,277 Times
in
2,940 Posts
Regardless, there is absolutely no reason to expect that the average Peloton user sets up their bike the way they do because it results in maximum power production.
Likes For tomato coupe:
#118
climber has-been
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 7,080
Bikes: Scott Addict R1, Felt Z1
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3405 Post(s)
Liked 3,535 Times
in
1,778 Posts
Here's another study:
It tested fourteen trained cyclists to find their most oxygen-efficient bicycle position.
They found that the most efficient position had a hip angle that each cyclist was already accustomed to riding on their own bicycle.
One might conclude that humans become most efficient at actions they do the most often.
The relationship between preferred and optimal positioning during submaximal cycle ergometry
It tested fourteen trained cyclists to find their most oxygen-efficient bicycle position.
They found that the most efficient position had a hip angle that each cyclist was already accustomed to riding on their own bicycle.
One might conclude that humans become most efficient at actions they do the most often.
__________________
Ride, Rest, Repeat. ROUVY: terrymorse
Ride, Rest, Repeat. ROUVY: terrymorse
#119
Dirty Heathen
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: MC-778, 6250 fsw
Posts: 2,182
Bikes: 1997 Cannondale, 1976 Bridgestone, 1998 SoftRide, 1989 Klein, 1989 Black Lightning #0033
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 889 Post(s)
Liked 906 Times
in
534 Posts
I've tried setting up 'spin bikes' like my road bike, even to the point of bringing a tape measure and beam level to the gym with me, (for the sake of science) and it just doesn't feel 'right' Heck, even my own bike on a stationary trainer feels substantially different than when it's rolling down the road. Also, the saddles on most spin bikes are more like 'recreational' saddles, than sport/racing saddles, and are more suited to riding upright than 'tucked in'
Getting 'low' is done for an aero advantage, not for more power. If you look at something like a TRI bike, you'll notice that the seat tube is extremely upright, like 78*+ and forward, which allows the rider's upper body to be low on the aero bars, while still keeping the hip angle open enough for good leg extension.
When I'm climbing on a rigid-frame bike, I don't really get down, as much as I get forward; I pull back (not up) on the bars, and get up 'on the rivet' of the saddle. This lets me get more weight onto the pedals, without overwhelming the rear tire (on gravel / dirt climb) and on longer / steeper climbs gets me part way into the transition to standing climbing, as it's needed.
Getting 'low' is done for an aero advantage, not for more power. If you look at something like a TRI bike, you'll notice that the seat tube is extremely upright, like 78*+ and forward, which allows the rider's upper body to be low on the aero bars, while still keeping the hip angle open enough for good leg extension.
When I'm climbing on a rigid-frame bike, I don't really get down, as much as I get forward; I pull back (not up) on the bars, and get up 'on the rivet' of the saddle. This lets me get more weight onto the pedals, without overwhelming the rear tire (on gravel / dirt climb) and on longer / steeper climbs gets me part way into the transition to standing climbing, as it's needed.
#122
Cheerfully low end
Join Date: Jun 2020
Posts: 1,971
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 644 Post(s)
Liked 1,044 Times
in
667 Posts
I think posture can affect maximum applied pedal force.
My experience is that there are optimal postures for maximum pedal force for both sitting and standing, depending on the situation, but I think they tend to occur in a function with a fairly broad peak, so varying from that isn’t a huge deal.
Seated, the peak force of the pedal stroke is directed at an angle both down and forward and the reaction force pushes both up and back. So the upper body needs to pull forward some to oppose the reaction force. I find that something less than fully upright is needed to deliver maximum pedal force. A 45 degree body lean helps because gravity exerts an opposing force on your torso and you have good posture and alignment with arms pulling at a forward and downward direction to oppose the pedal reaction force. The lower you get, the more the weight of your torso pulls down as you get more weight forward of the hip joint, but it isn’t really improving the pull in the forward direction.
Standing while climbing in a slow cadence, like up a steep slope on a single speed, moves the peak pedal force more nearly straight down, so maximum pedal force, which is quite necessary, needs a grip with arms extended down and pulling up. My touring bars give me this wheelbarrow style grip which I resort to on the really steep climbs. This requires a grip back near the steering axis which drop bars can’t provide.
Anyway those are the things I’ve noticed recently that led me to choose touring bars as the best compromise for the type of single speed riding I do.
Otto
My experience is that there are optimal postures for maximum pedal force for both sitting and standing, depending on the situation, but I think they tend to occur in a function with a fairly broad peak, so varying from that isn’t a huge deal.
Seated, the peak force of the pedal stroke is directed at an angle both down and forward and the reaction force pushes both up and back. So the upper body needs to pull forward some to oppose the reaction force. I find that something less than fully upright is needed to deliver maximum pedal force. A 45 degree body lean helps because gravity exerts an opposing force on your torso and you have good posture and alignment with arms pulling at a forward and downward direction to oppose the pedal reaction force. The lower you get, the more the weight of your torso pulls down as you get more weight forward of the hip joint, but it isn’t really improving the pull in the forward direction.
Standing while climbing in a slow cadence, like up a steep slope on a single speed, moves the peak pedal force more nearly straight down, so maximum pedal force, which is quite necessary, needs a grip with arms extended down and pulling up. My touring bars give me this wheelbarrow style grip which I resort to on the really steep climbs. This requires a grip back near the steering axis which drop bars can’t provide.
Anyway those are the things I’ve noticed recently that led me to choose touring bars as the best compromise for the type of single speed riding I do.
Otto
#123
Senior Member
I tend to believe we do get more power in the upright position. But I usually run out of breath before my legs give out. So it may not matter to some of use with longer climbs.
With short climbs though the extra power means I can climb short hills without downshifting keeping my comfort bike in a surprisingly higher gear then I anticipated without getting off the seat.
With short climbs though the extra power means I can climb short hills without downshifting keeping my comfort bike in a surprisingly higher gear then I anticipated without getting off the seat.
Last edited by xroadcharlie; 06-12-21 at 07:14 AM.
#124
Senior Member
A good discussion here: City Bikes | LocalMile
As you push down on a pedal though your weight xfers from your ischia to that leg. And again, at lower wattage your glutes and hams are better able to provide force more efficiently beginning at an approx 90° angle rather than a greater angle that would be the case when leaning over.
For something more visual...
#125
Senior Member
It's important to keep in mind that there's not a simple single answer to the OP's question. It varies based on power output.
At lower wattages upright is more efficient and provides sufficient force. Below about 15 mph (flat, no wind) there is no power advantage to leaning forward only decrease in efficiency. Someone riding around town at 13 mph will use less energy and sweat less sitting perfectly upright than leaning forward. As wattage output increases then leaning forward begins to allow for more force to be applied to the pedal stroke than is possible from an upright position.
HOWEVER, that extra force does not mean improved efficiency but comes at the cost of efficiency.
At lower wattages upright is more efficient and provides sufficient force. Below about 15 mph (flat, no wind) there is no power advantage to leaning forward only decrease in efficiency. Someone riding around town at 13 mph will use less energy and sweat less sitting perfectly upright than leaning forward. As wattage output increases then leaning forward begins to allow for more force to be applied to the pedal stroke than is possible from an upright position.
HOWEVER, that extra force does not mean improved efficiency but comes at the cost of efficiency.