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Do you think Pogacar is doping?

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Do you think Pogacar is doping?

Old 07-19-21, 12:40 PM
  #26  
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And don't make it seem that it's just sniggling little ccorners of this forum where these questions are being raised. You know it's a widespread suspicion.

https://cyclingtips.com/2021/07/tade...-insinuations/
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Old 07-19-21, 12:41 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
So, we are supposed to believe he gained 50% MORE power at that duration within just the past year? What did he grow a third lung? Preposterous.
You are lacking in imagination, perhaps. He doesn't need a 3rd lung if it's bike that is the doping agent.
https://www.velonews.com/events/tour...-insinuations/
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Old 07-19-21, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
It's not a moral question, it's a question of what is going on in the races present-day. I care if somebody has an unfair advantage on the road now, and what they did 15 years ago is immaterial. You have no evidence behind your insinuation.

The questions are raised about Pogacar because his apparent power is anomalous. I don't know if he is clean or dirty, but his refusal to release real power numbers doesn't help.
No what someone did 15 years ago is relevant, especially when they were convicted on irrefutable evidence yet have never acknowledged their guilt and tried for years to evade punishment on technicalities. Apply the same common sense that you would with a convicted criminal.

Apparent power is basically false evidence, but whatever, we want you to prove you're innocent for now, that is till we produce some other fake nugget.

But 'you know who' is an exciting attacker, an 'amazing' rider, so who cares about his past.
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Old 07-19-21, 01:00 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Caretaker View Post
No what someone did 15 years ago is relevant, especially when they were convicted on irrefutable evidence yet have never acknowledged their guilt and tried for years to evade punishment on technicalities. Apply the same common sense that you would with a convicted criminal.

Apparent power is basically false evidence, but whatever, we want you to prove you're innocent for now, that is till we produce some other fake nugget.

But 'you know who' is an exciting attacker, an 'amazing' rider, so who cares about his past.
Apparent power is not evidence at all and I said so. it adds to questions that have been raised about somebody who blew the GC field apart. I am not convicting nor do I imagine that i'm in a position to do so. I'm saying that he should be more transparent. You have no arguments against this.

As to the 15 years ago thing, you are affirming my earlier point - the only thing that would satisfy you is extended culpability and a permanent ban. I suppose that you also believe that all guilty of moral or criminal transgression should be judged differently from others for the rest of their lives . But that's a subject for P&R, where I no longer care to waste my time.
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Old 07-19-21, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
Apparent power is not evidence at all and I said so. it adds to questions that have been raised about somebody who blew the GC field apart. I am not convicting nor do I imagine that i'm in a position to do so. I'm saying that he should be more transparent. You have no arguments against this.

As to the 15 years ago thing, you are affirming my earlier point - the only thing that would satisfy you is extended culpability and a permanent ban. I suppose that you also believe that all guilty of moral or criminal transgression should be judged differently from others for the rest of their lives . But that's a subject for P&R, where I no longer care to waste my time.
I've explained my position fully and as you continue to misrepresent it and indulge in fantasy supposition I don't care to continue with this. Bye.
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Old 07-19-21, 02:55 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
Maybe so. What's the justifiable reason he won't release real data when his reputation is on the line?
When you respond with "Maybe so", you are either lack knowledge or are disingenuous.

Why did you dodge my question?

Why would any pro release their power data?

It would give competitors an advantage, letting know where his weaknesses are and where he is very strong and thus where the best place to attack him would be. So's that?
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Old 07-19-21, 02:57 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
You are lacking in imagination, perhaps. He doesn't need a 3rd lung if it's bike that is the doping agent.
https://www.velonews.com/events/tour...-insinuations/
Bikes are scanned. IR is cheap nowadays. I have it. I am not the rube, here.
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Old 07-19-21, 03:46 PM
  #33  
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Yes.
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Old 07-19-21, 03:51 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
Why would any pro release their power data?
Ask Richard Carapaz, who like many other pros, posted power data from the Tour directly to Strava. Here is his stage 17.

Glad that you aren't a rube.


https://www.strava.com/activities/5626776242/overview


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Old 07-19-21, 03:56 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
Ask Richard Carapaz, who like many other pros, posted power data from the Tour directly to Strava. Here is his stage 17.

Glad that you aren't a rube.


https://www.strava.com/activities/5626776242/overview



So?

And, are you going to answer my question? So, let me say....

You are naive to believe the Strava data that you posted.

If he doped, it was maybe 3 or 5% gain. Not 50%.

His margin was not huge. The power file would not vindicate him with ilk like you.
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Old 07-19-21, 04:01 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
So?

And, are you going to answer my question? So, let me say....

You are naive to believe the Strava data that you posted.

If he doped, it was maybe 3 or 5% gain. Not 50%.

His margin was not huge. The power file would not vindicate him with ilk like you.
Which Strava data that I posted? The estimated power from Pogacar? i never said I believed it.
The Carapaz data? Are you alleging that that is faked?

And your comment about vindication with "ilk like me" suggests that you have a reading comprehension problem. I have not accused Pogacar of cheating and I do not have a strong opinion on it based on available information.
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Old 07-19-21, 04:18 PM
  #37  
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Seen this before...

I've lived through the 90s and the 00's PEDs eras. They both started with glorious new heroes. Headlines of magnificent victories. Fresh faces exalted by the cycling media.

And then you started hearing whispers. And not far down the road, an asterisk was placed upon every podium. Every victory.

"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...won't get fooled again."

As entertaining as the TdF is, they have to do much more to wipe away my skepticism and win back my trust.
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Old 07-19-21, 07:45 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Caretaker View Post
No what someone did 15 years ago is relevant, especially when they were convicted on irrefutable evidence yet have never acknowledged their guilt and tried for years to evade punishment on technicalities. Apply the same common sense that you would with a convicted criminal.

Apparent power is basically false evidence, but whatever, we want you to prove you're innocent for now, that is till we produce some other fake nugget.

But 'you know who' is an exciting attacker, an 'amazing' rider, so who cares about his past.
I wish we would. In theory, we have a system where you do your time and you are back on the outside. Yet, in practice, you're arguing for some durable sanction.

I might not be opposed to higher stakes penalties in some situations. I am opposed to lingering post-penalty double secret probation guilt trips. The penalty is what it is, contrite or not. Then racing again until the next finding and conviction.

I have no basis for emoting that he is clean or he is dirty or this or that. I like fact-based discussion and, even better, evidence-based ones. Until then, I prefer to suspend disbelief and enjoy the race. That's not the same thing as being naive about the possibilities, but it's such a slippery slope to disenchantment and bitterness that I'll just holdl off on the fun sucking ideas. If they come to light, I can watch it later on the WADA ticker or Oprah.
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Old 07-19-21, 11:57 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by slcbob View Post
Yet, in practice, you're arguing for some durable sanction.
No. See #22.
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Old 07-20-21, 03:25 AM
  #40  
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Not aimed at Pogacar specifically, but apparently there were some suspicions of mechanical doping at this year's TdF. Bikes making 'funny' noises.
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Old 07-20-21, 04:46 AM
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Originally Posted by john m flores View Post
I've lived through the 90s and the 00's PEDs eras. They both started with glorious new heroes. Headlines of magnificent victories. Fresh faces exalted by the cycling media.

And then you started hearing whispers. And not far down the road, an asterisk was placed upon every podium. Every victory.

"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...won't get fooled again."

As entertaining as the TdF is, they have to do much more to wipe away my skepticism and win back my trust.
I'm with that guy ^
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Old 07-20-21, 07:13 AM
  #42  
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Sounds like the UCI is testing bicycles for evidence of mechanical doping:

"The UCI said it used magnetic scanning tablets on 606 bikes before the start of stages, and put 114 bikes through its mobile X-ray lab after stages...In a press note Monday, the UCI outlined its testing protocol, saying that each day’s winner, as well as the GC leader, have their bikes X-rayed after each stage, along with other random controls throughout the race."

Tour de France: UCI says no infractions following 720 inspections for 'motor doping' | VeloNews.com

Still, the fact that they're introducing new tests for the Olympics suggests that there may be some insufficiency with the current testing protocol.
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Old 07-20-21, 07:25 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Caretaker View Post
No. See #22.
I did. But it's drowned out by #20 and #28.

Absolutely take precedent into consideration in the penalty phase and perhaps in informing the immediate actions in response to an adverse finding. Maybe even dig harder to find that adverse finding. But until there is one, we either have a system where riders come back from their mandatory time in the wilderness, or we don't. Like MinnMan , I read your pass for Pogacar and your non-pass for Valverdemort, he who shall not be named, as advocating applying a standard that isn't part of the sport at this time. I don't grasp what else is different in the cases other than the offense for which the penalty has either been served and it's in the past, or it isn't (what I infer from your #20 and #28, despite musings to the contrary).

Perhaps there could or should be a more severe or enduring sanction, but that's a separate discussion.

I also note that the pressure for a lesser specimen to dope so that they could be a marginal rider may be just as great as it is for a proven mutant specimen like Pogacar to dope so he can win it all, but the surveillance is much less for those off the podium. It's no less meaningful that the sport be cleaned up in the grupetto and domestiques, to level the playing field for those that didn't dope and didn't get a contract.
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Old 07-20-21, 07:36 AM
  #44  
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They are all doping in one way or another. Just like baseball, football and basketball players. It's just a matter of who is better at hiding it.
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Old 07-20-21, 09:10 AM
  #45  
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If you win you dope? Accusing one of doping because they won is stupid.

Instead of tarnishing the reputation of someone, you should be using your mouth to chastise the UCI and WADA or whomever is responsible to tell them you have doubts about their effectiveness.

But until someone is proven beyond a doubt to have doped, I don't think they should be said to be a doper.
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Old 07-20-21, 12:08 PM
  #46  
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I'm mercurial, but Pogacar is not doping, mechanically or chemically. As slcbob points out, there is so much spotlight on the podium, and from minus-7, that I don't think it's feasible. We'd have heard about it.

Look at Pogacar, he is a fantastic specimen. He's been riding since a little kid and putting others to shame. He has not crashed constantly, and (as LR pointed out) actively avoided the wheels of those that do. He's wicked tactical, and always has a cool demeanor. Is he a psychopath? Most likely. I loved how he's reeled back Kwiakowskikwiatkowski.

Could he be the early work of Doctor Virginijus and other eastern European scientists? More likely then simple chemical or mechanical doping.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virg...%A0ik%C5%A1nys


The research interests of V. Šikšnys include structure-function relationships of enzymes involved in nucleic acids metabolism. V. Šikšnys and members of his laboratory perform biochemical, biophysical and structural studies of proteins involved in bacterial antiviral defense, including restriction endonucleases and CRISPR-Cas systems.
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Old 07-20-21, 12:34 PM
  #47  
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It is hard not to be skeptical.

I remember watching stage 17 in 1991 on the road on Alpe d'Huez and seeing Indurain with Gianni Bugno and Chiapucci if I remember. Indurain looked like he was barely doing tempo. A guy who couldn't finish a tour in recent years and could not climb with these two in his dreams. Then, maybe two minutes later were Hampsten and Lemond. I was perplexed. How could this horse of a man outclimb two of the best in the world and look like it is a club ride.

Pogacar's performance does NOT leave me scratching my head. I don't think he doped
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Old 07-20-21, 12:49 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by GrainBrain View Post
I'm mercurial, but Pogacar is not doping, mechanically or chemically. As slcbob points out, there is so much spotlight on the podium, and from minus-7, that I don't think it's feasible. We'd have heard about it.

Look at Pogacar, he is a fantastic specimen. He's been riding since a little kid and putting others to shame. He has not crashed constantly, and (as LR pointed out) actively avoided the wheels of those that do. He's wicked tactical, and always has a cool demeanor. Is he a psychopath? Most likely. I loved how he's reeled back Kwiakowskikwiatkowski.

Could he be the early work of Doctor Virginijus and other eastern European scientists? More likely then simple chemical or mechanical doping.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virg...%A0ik%C5%A1nys
I know you're writing in jest here, but Lithuania and Slovenia are very far apart, both geographically and socially. Why would a putative Lithuanian mad scientist breed Slovenian super-athletes and ignore the more local talent, such as that Polish dude - what's his name?
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Old 07-20-21, 01:05 PM
  #49  
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Seriously, does it really matter. With the approval of TUEs supported by the industry and their medical staff almost any drug can be approved and often are for training. Clean up for a few weeks before any race and your home free. Anyone that believes that these guys compete at this level on aspirin is delusional. This does not make all of them druggies, it simply makes them human. Still the greatest show on earth, love bike racing!!! One more thing, to suggest that a rider is using unapproved drugs cheapens the sport and is strictly hear say and mean spirited bull ****.
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Old 07-20-21, 01:06 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by slcbob View Post
I did. But it's drowned out by #20 and #28.
Both #20 & #28 relate to public perceptions of riders with prior convictions not any official sanctions beyond perhaps more active survalence and attention from random drug testing.

There's a difference between serving time and character reform.
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