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Velocity Aerohead (Road) Replacement Rim?

Old 07-21-21, 03:38 PM
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Steve_sr
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Velocity Aerohead (Road) Replacement Rim?

Hello,

The original Aerohead (20mm) has apparently been discontinued and replaced with the A23 which is a 3mm wider rim. I have ridden both and the A23 is a bone shaker compared to the original Aerohead, even with reduced tire pressure.

So I am looking for a silver alloy rim that is narrower than the A23 (23mm). So far I haven't had much luck. Can anyone offer any recommendations for companies/products.

Thanks,
Steve
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Old 07-21-21, 03:52 PM
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Aerohead rims do show up periodically on E-Bay, both new, and slightly used.

The rims were made both in Australia (older ones), and the USA (newer ones), with slightly different decals.

Are you looking for standard rims or "off-center" rims? Number of holes?
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Old 07-21-21, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
Aerohead rims do show up periodically on E-Bay, both new, and slightly used.
I am not really looking to wait out the NOS, used market. Like to find something that would normally be available stock (non-pandemic).

Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
Are you looking for standard rims or "off-center" rims? Number of holes?
Ideally OC for the rear in either 28 or 32 hole drillings.
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Old 07-21-21, 04:13 PM
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DT is the other big vendor that makes "asymmetric" rims.

It looks like the R440 is 21mm outside width.

However, they also appear to be black only with a tubeless profile.
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Old 07-21-21, 05:29 PM
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It's impressive you can detect a rougher ride on a 23mm rim vs a 20mm rim. I'm lucky my senses are not that finely tuned!
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Old 07-21-21, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
DT is the other big vendor that makes "asymmetric" rims.

It looks like the R440 is 21mm outside width.

However, they also appear to be black only with a tubeless profile.
I can't find the R440 on the DT Swiss website. Has it been discontinued?

I did find the RR411 which appears to be an aero profile. The RR440 looks like old Velocity Aerohead!

Black is probably not a killer but since the bike is titanium I would prefer silver alloy.
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Old 07-21-21, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by shelbyfv View Post
It's impressive you can detect a rougher ride on a 23mm rim vs a 20mm rim. I'm lucky my senses are not that finely tuned!
I was really surprised too. Unfortunately, I can't go back to compare the two with the A23s at lower pressure. With the 20mm Aerohead the sidewalls were less vertical and the entire casing bent to absorb the bumps. With the A23 the sidewall is much more vertical so you are trying to directly compress the sidewall which has much less compliance in the vertical direction.
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Old 07-21-21, 05:56 PM
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Get H and Son Rims they are great 23mm profile. I have over 12000 on a set with Ultegra hubs ride 32 spoke. They ride great google Velomine to get.
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Old 07-21-21, 06:12 PM
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Seems as if the ERD is close or the same as the old Open Pros. Should be easy to find and you could use your same spokes. Might be worth some research.
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Old 07-21-21, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by shelbyfv View Post
Seems as if the ERD is close or the same as the old Open Pros. Should be easy to find and you could use your same spokes. Might be worth some research.
This will be for a completely new build that I am working on speccing.
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Old 07-21-21, 10:27 PM
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https://www.peterwhitecycles.com/velocity.php
Claims to have them still in stock even O/C, only ever ordered from him once but has a selection of oddity items.
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Old 07-21-21, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve_sr View Post
I was really surprised too. Unfortunately, I can't go back to compare the two with the A23s at lower pressure. With the 20mm Aerohead the sidewalls were less vertical and the entire casing bent to absorb the bumps. With the A23 the sidewall is much more vertical so you are trying to directly compress the sidewall which has much less compliance in the vertical direction.
That sounds more like the Aero extrusion:

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Old 07-22-21, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Russ Roth View Post
https://www.peterwhitecycles.com/velocity.php
Claims to have them still in stock even O/C, only ever ordered from him once but has a selection of oddity items.
Peter built the original wheels in 2007. When I went back to him a couple of years ago the original Aerohead rims were NLA. From what I have seen elsewhere they still are NLA. It is hard to tell from his website what is current and what is history.
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Old 07-22-21, 07:28 AM
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I've wondered several times if that is the case but with his claim of having the largest stock of them didn't know if he'd just bought out lots when they were discontinued.
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Old 07-22-21, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve_sr View Post
Hello,

The original Aerohead (20mm) has apparently been discontinued and replaced with the A23 which is a 3mm wider rim. I have ridden both and the A23 is a bone shaker compared to the original Aerohead, even with reduced tire pressure.

So I am looking for a silver alloy rim that is narrower than the A23 (23mm). So far I haven't had much luck. Can anyone offer any recommendations for companies/products.

Thanks,
Steve
You might find the A23 to be a bone shaker but the wheel build, rim tape, tube choice and tire choice all contibute.

I’m curious what tires & tire pressures you were running. Last year I ran Challenge Strada 25mm open tubulars with tubeless tape & Vittoria latex inner tubes & found the combo quite comfortable & grippy @ lower pressures such as 72 front & 85 psi rear.
The better sidewall support allows you to run lower pressures which gives you a smooth ride but retains cornering sharpness.

If you really need extra rubber I suppose that 28’s would overhang the outer width of the A23’s (depending on brand).
Be aware too that A23’s are tubeless ready, arrowheads are not. A creative tubeless setup with the Velocity tubeless conversion kit for the A23’s could be really sublime since with tubeless you can lower the pressure even more.

When I crashed my bike with DT Swiss RR1.1’s & Dura Ace 7700 hubs I had them rebuilt into Velocity A23’s and the wheel builder used lightweight DT Swiss (Revolution?) butted spokes and aluminum spoke nipples. The configuration was 36 spoke 3 cross rear and 32 spoke 2 cross front. The spoke selection lightened up the wheels but the higher spoke count means they are still plenty strong for my 200 pound self.

I have a 32 asymetric Aerohead and standard 28 Aerohead new old stock that I purchased for a build before I became enamored with wider, tubeless ready clincher rims. I think they might be gunmetal blue but I would have to check. I don’t really want to sell them because I already have the Dura Ace 7403/7400 hubs set aside to have my wheel builder @ the LBS build them for a retro project.

Curiously waiting for your response about what tires and what pressures caused the harshness in your previous (negative) A23 experience.

Last edited by masi61; 07-22-21 at 10:24 AM.
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Old 07-22-21, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by masi61 View Post
A creative tubeless setup with the Velocity tubeless conversion kit for the A23ís could be really sublime since with tubeless you can lower the pressure even more.
I am afraid t hat I am not yet sold on the need for a tubeless setup. In the mid-atlantic where I live we don't have goatheads or other causes for small punctures. Usually issues are a rare tube pinch or road shoulder trash which may leave a bigger hole than sealant can fix. Although I have not done it I can't imagine trying to put a tube AND a boot inside of a tire full of sealant in a roadside repair. Sounds like a colossal mess.

Originally Posted by masi61 View Post
Curiously waiting for your response about what tires and what pressures caused the harshness in your previous (negative) A23 experience.
Actually I am still running the A23s. The tires are Continental Gatorskin 700x25mm. I have been running 80-85 psi in the rear and 70-75 psi in the front.

I actually have a spare set of wheels and I just checked the rims are about 19.5mm wide. If I get a chance I might swap the tires out and see the difference in the ride quality.
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Old 07-22-21, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve_sr View Post
Hello,

The original Aerohead (20mm) has apparently been discontinued and replaced with the A23 which is a 3mm wider rim. I have ridden both and the A23 is a bone shaker compared to the original Aerohead, even with reduced tire pressure.

So I am looking for a silver alloy rim that is narrower than the A23 (23mm). So far I haven't had much luck. Can anyone offer any recommendations for companies/products.

Thanks,
Steve
No...there should be no noticeable difference that you could feel between pretty much any 2 rims much 2 rims that are basically the same thing. If a certain wheel 'feels' much more comfortable than another wheel it's all in your head. With proper tension rims don't move anywhere near enough to feel a difference no matter how hard your tire is inflated. It's a huuuuuuge myth.
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Old 07-22-21, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
No...there should be no noticeable difference that you could feel between pretty much any 2 rims much 2 rims that are basically the same thing. If a certain wheel 'feels' much more comfortable than another wheel it's all in your head. With proper tension rims don't move anywhere near enough to feel a difference no matter how hard your tire is inflated. It's a huuuuuuge myth.
You are technically correct in that the hub, spokes, rim are stiff enough not to affect compliance (suspension). However, the road-tire-rim interface DOES affect compliance and ride quality. Changing from a 20 to a 23mm rim width significantly affects the profile (shape) of the tire cross section hence its compliance and contribution to ride quality. The same thing happens in your car with low-profile tires.
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Old 07-22-21, 11:04 PM
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The general theory is that a wider rim should have the same tire casing running wider and have a better ride feel. For what it's worth I find the ride quality of Gatorskins fairly poor--you'll get a drastically bigger difference in ride quality switching to even Grand Prix 4 Seasons, which literally have the same puncture protection layer as Gators, but have better quality rubber which rolls a lot better, at a minute expense of puncture protection. You'll also get a drastically I honestly feel like Continental keeps the Gatorskins around just because they were early to the market for a significantly more puncture protective road tire that felt OK to train on, and so many regular road riders have used them for so long they don't want to scrap a cash cow. You'll feel a bigger difference with GP5000s or other supple, fast, everyday road tires. Also I like road tubeless, but I agree that if you don't feel that the sealant sealing small punctures is a major advantage, the more difficult tire mounting and need to add sealant probably outweigh the pretty modest other benefits, which can be made up in large part by using a supple ultralight tube.

Also unless your frame has clearance issues, most road calipers now clear 28mm tires which will vastly eclipse almost all factors regarding ride quality, with the only disadvantages being a small amount of weight, and possibly aerodynamic drag depending on rim profile.
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Old 07-23-21, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by cpach View Post
The general theory is that a wider rim should have the same tire casing running wider and have a better ride feel. For what it's worth I find the ride quality of Gatorskins fairly poor--you'll get a drastically bigger difference in ride quality switching to even Grand Prix 4 Seasons, which literally have the same puncture protection layer as Gators, but have better quality rubber which rolls a lot better, at a minute expense of puncture protection. You'll also get a drastically I honestly feel like Continental keeps the Gatorskins around just because they were early to the market for a significantly more puncture protective road tire that felt OK to train on, and so many regular road riders have used them for so long they don't want to scrap a cash cow. You'll feel a bigger difference with GP5000s or other supple, fast, everyday road tires. Also I like road tubeless, but I agree that if you don't feel that the sealant sealing small punctures is a major advantage, the more difficult tire mounting and need to add sealant probably outweigh the pretty modest other benefits, which can be made up in large part by using a supple ultralight tube.

Also unless your frame has clearance issues, most road calipers now clear 28mm tires which will vastly eclipse almost all factors regarding ride quality, with the only disadvantages being a small amount of weight, and possibly aerodynamic drag depending on rim profile.
Thanks for the insight. In 2005 the bike originally came with Vittoria Rubino Pro tires which wouldn't go more than about 25 miles without flatting. When I went back to the shop they replaced the rubber band rim strip with real rim tape and installed Gatorskins. Problem solved. So I have been running Gatorskins ever since with seldom a flat tire. I suspect that the real issue was the rim strip rotating with the tube and uncovering a spoke hole. Holds air fine until you go around a corner!

Can you provide any resources that would compare different tires casing suppleness and rolling resistance? These should track somewhat. I may be shopping for some new tires soon.

Thanks,
Steve

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Old 07-23-21, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve_sr View Post
Thanks for the insight. In 2005 the bike originally came with Vittoria Rubino Pro tires which wouldn't go more than about 25 miles without flatting. When I went back to the shop they replaced the rubber band rim strip with real rim tape and installed Gatorskins. Problem solved. So I have been running Gatorskins ever since with seldom a flat tire. I suspect that the real issue was the rim strip rotating with the tube and uncovering a spoke hole. Holds air fine until you go around a corner!

Can you provide any resources that would compare different tires casing suppleness and rolling resistance? These should track somewhat. I may be shopping for some new tires soon.

Thanks,
Steve
Try this site....https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/
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Old 07-23-21, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve_sr View Post
I am afraid t hat I am not yet sold on the need for a tubeless setup. In the mid-atlantic where I live we don't have goatheads or other causes for small punctures. Usually issues are a rare tube pinch or road shoulder trash which may leave a bigger hole than sealant can fix. Although I have not done it I can't imagine trying to put a tube AND a boot inside of a tire full of sealant in a roadside repair. Sounds like a colossal mess.



Actually I am still running the A23s. The tires are Continental Gatorskin 700x25mm. I have been running 80-85 psi in the rear and 70-75 psi in the front.

I actually have a spare set of wheels and I just checked the rims are about 19.5mm wide. If I get a chance I might swap the tires out and see the difference in the ride quality.
I wondered if you were riding Gatorskins - and indeed you are. There have been many people on these tire threads where the Gatorskins are described as having not very good ride quality. Also, as a person who has one of my road bikes set up tubeless - I must admit a secret: flat prevention is NOT my #1 reason for riding them. Ride quality is the #1 reason. With that said, my wheelset with the A23's is running regular tubed clinchers but with latex tubes. The latex tubes lose more pressure between rides and ALWAYS need to be topped up before each ride. A proper tubeless tire installation actually can hold pressure better between rides and they can be run at lower pressures in a pinch.

For tire recommendation: I know of no study or chart of all the metrics you are wanting to see. It might be better to just find a nice set of supple 25 mm clinchers and run them and see how they compare to the Gatorskins. 25 mm "open tubulars" are very supple. Veloflex, Challenge and Vittoria all make them. Oftentimes the thread count of the tire casing will be printed right on the tire casing. Generally speaking a higher thread count is generally considered 'more supple". I have experience with Challenge brand since you can sometimes find them on sale. Mounting them is a slightly different workflow and the first time you install them, you could end up pinching a tube under a bead unless you are very aware/skilled at what you are doing. But now that I have worked with them for a couple of years, the mounting procedure is not bad. And if you run them with latex tubes, you can eek out an even better ride over chipseal pavement. The Challenge tires are not as long wearing as tougher tires like the Continentals however.
But for real, it would take some faith on your part but if you could get your LBS do a double layer of tubeless tape and the correct tubeless valves with the A23's (and some sealant) you could install some grippy tubeless tires such as the Grand Prix 5000 TL's or the Michelin's or Hutchinson's or the Schwalbe's etc.. and see for your self what you are missing out on. I'm running Panaracer Race A Evo 3 tubeless 25 mm tires and they have been super nice. These tires are not currently available. I think Panaracer makes a bald tread tubeless gravel (Gravel King) tire that would probably work really well too. Sometimes these go on sale for under $40 which would be a good deal.

Last edited by masi61; 07-23-21 at 02:16 PM.
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Old 07-23-21, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by mprince View Post
Some of the lower rated rolling resistance tires can be some of the nicest riding for us ordinary riders. I am not a time trialist or triathalete so strait line speed is only one metric of a good tire.
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Old 07-23-21, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve_sr View Post
Can you provide any resources that would compare different tires casing suppleness and rolling resistance? These should track somewhat. I may be shopping for some new tires soon.

Thanks,
Steve
https://www.bicyclerollingresistance...d-bike-reviews Rolling resistance in this case is on a roller and there are some reasonable arguments as to why this doesn't reflect the real world but it is objective, repeatable, and independent.
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Old 07-23-21, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by cpach View Post
https://www.bicyclerollingresistance...d-bike-reviews Rolling resistance in this case is on a roller and there are some reasonable arguments as to why this doesn't reflect the real world but it is objective, repeatable, and independent.
It is interesting that the Gatorskin was slightly more than DOUBLE the rolling resistance of the GP500TL. I would think that this would indicate not a very supple casing. The ride quality seems to back this up as well.

I have also been reading that RR on a drum is not a good real world test since none of us ride on a steel drum or really smooth asphalt either. Silca makes a good point in their almost impossible to find blog posts:

https://blog.silca.cc/all

that RR becomes secondary when you consider road surface roughness and all of the energy wasted bouncing you up and down. Their testing shows that what you really want is a supple casing and it is better to run 10psi under than 10 psi over the recommended pressure (for your weight).

There has also been a similar discussion on tire casing suppleness here:
https://www.renehersecycles.com/
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