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Old 10-22-18, 01:25 AM
  #2176  
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Originally Posted by brawlo View Post
BUT WHY? The No.1 qualifier, to my knowledge hasn't actually publicly declared her reasoning for withdrawing.
The top qualifier, Sarah Fader, is on record in this article:
https://www.velonews.com/2018/10/new...ckinnon_480285
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Old 10-22-18, 01:43 AM
  #2177  
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Originally Posted by brawlo View Post
What if you were a male and in a shooting or archery mens competition category and a group of women came in and took home all the medals. That's entirely possible and fully legit too.
I used to compete in shooting sports briefly. I would 100% be open to an Open (non gender-group) competitions at all levels. I competed toe to toe (err...stopwatch to stopwatch) with women half my age...and got my ass kicked. And would pay money the next week to do it all over again.

Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
The top qualifier, Sarah Fader, is on record in this article:
https://www.velonews.com/2018/10/new...ckinnon_480285
Bam.

This is from one of women directly affected and likely to beat her.

But what if the rulebooks are wrong? Track racer Sarah Fader believes the IOC’s rules create an unfair situation for cis women (cisgender refers to individuals whose gender identity matches their birth gender).

Known by some cycling fans for her maiden name, Caravella, Fader raced in the U.S. professional road scene from 2006-2015. Fader was set to race against Dr. McKinnon in the masters finals in Los Angeles. She was the defending masters world champion in the event, and she set the fastest time in the qualifying heats. She beat Dr. McKinnon in both a 200- and 500-meter time trial during the weekend.

Fader, however, told me that she felt that racing against Dr. McKinnon was simply not fair. Dr. McKinnon stands six feet tall and weighs 200 pounds. Fader, by contrast, is 5-foot-5 and weighs 135 pounds. So minutes before the finals were set to start, she pulled out of the competition entirely.

“I thought that doing it this way was my own form of protest,” Fader said. “I knew that I personally did not agree with the situation. I don’t want to compete in a sport where the rules are unfair.”

In my conversation with Fader, she spoke about Dr. McKinnon with a calm tone of respect. She did not use mean or insulting language, or question Dr. McKinnon’s trans status, as critics often do online. Fader was cognizant that Dr. McKinnon’s position placed her in a challenging position. She believes the current rules simply place athletes like her at an unfair disadvantage.

Prior to the race, Fader said she read about Dr. McKinnon online, and also read the rules governing transgender participation in sports. Some of the articles Fader read — columns that questioned the science behind the IOC rulings — made her question the current rulebook on transgender participation. Fader said she does not blame Dr. McKinnon for competing in the event; rather, she disagrees with the rules allowing her to race against cis women.

“I’m not blaming Rachel for competing. A lot of people are calling her a cheater, and she’s not a cheater because the current rules allow her to do it legally,” Fader said. “I just don’t believe the current rules.”

Fader says her opinion was upheld by what she saw in the qualifying rounds. In Fader’s eyes, Dr. McKinnon dominated the other riders at the competition. Her power on the bicycle was simply too great for tactics and strategy to overcome, Fader said. And when Fader learned that Dr. McKinnon had switched from road cycling to track racing less than two years ago, she also questioned her inclusion. Fader is a cycling coach, and she believes Dr. McKinnon’s rapid rise from track newbie to world champion is a sign of an unfair advantage.

“It’s taken some women five to eight years to get that fast and [Dr. McKinnon] made these leaps and bounds in a few years,” Fader said. “For her being such a beginner and being able to hit these times that took us years to hit how do you even measure that progression?”
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Old 10-22-18, 03:06 AM
  #2178  
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Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
The top qualifier, Sarah Fader, is on record in this article:
https://www.velonews.com/2018/10/new...ckinnon_480285
That’s actually a really good article and Fader seems to run along my thought lines in her feelings towards SF. She appears to smartly not draw issue with SF but rather the rules of the game need to change.

I do find it amusing though with her size issue making things not fair. Let’s all hope Elis Ligtlee never enters masters competition
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Old 10-22-18, 04:59 AM
  #2179  
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I agree in general the discussion I've seen on the internet is full of inane bashing. From SF's perspective it must be pretty hard to take, that you've trained hard and played by the rules set forth by the governing body (I don't think that is in question unless I've missed something) and nonetheless the overwhelming response is negative.
I think questions aimed at whether the rules and regulations need further examination / amendment are fine to ask... but there is a person at the center of it, which I think often gets forgotten in internet frenzies like this has become.
To me, do I think SF picked a sport that rewarded her physiology... yes. I don't think that's a question, she would certainly be a fine master's sprinter in an open field of men and women. The question then is whether or not she has an unfair advantage. I think she has an uncommon body type for a female cyclist, but not unheard of. How few women in the US get into cycling to start with, beyond that how many into a specialization like track sprinting. A very small % so not seeing a lot of variety of body types is not much of an argument. (I bring that up since the internet seems so focused on how much larger SF is than the other ladies on the podium) Some very, very large men are track sprinters, who would look downright out of place on a podium with smaller, more traditional cyclists, but should you punish them because they chose the right discipline? If SF had chose to focus on hill climb nationals I doubt this would be a discussion we were having... so is it because she is good at picking her battles why we're here?

Fwiw I don't know any answers... I'm just a dude behind a keyboard who has too much time to read the internet. But everyone who competed at Worlds agreed to compete under the IOC's rules, right?
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Old 10-22-18, 06:35 AM
  #2180  
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Originally Posted by brawlo View Post
I do find it amusing though with her size issue making things not fair. Let’s all hope Elis Ligtlee never enters masters competition
Right?

As a bike racer, I've come to terms with disappointment a lot - being beaten by people who outclass the rest of the field; being beaten by full time athletes who just get to train more and recover better; athletes who don't have to travel to this race that we're both at; or natural athletes who just start out a ****load faster, stronger, and better than I did. I think that the stuff around sex and gender with trans participation hits some competitive people hard because we like to think that we have a shot of winning, and we like to think that there is something fundamentally disqualifying about people who beat us: to too many bike racers, winners are either dopers or sandbaggers. I've seen a lot of bike racers (and surely it's similar in other sports) try to figure out how to ensure that racing is a "level playing field" - which, honestly, means that a lot of people want to ensure that they're only racing races where they have a reasonable shot at winning or medaling.

But sports aren't about a fair playing field or having a shot at winning. For me, it's about coming to terms with the certainty that I am not the best - that there are a lot of people who are better than me - and the more I try to slice away at the competition to remove them from the starting line in the first place, the more I smell bull**** on my breath - you know?

Cycling lets you touch the hem of your dreams. A guy I race with at ttown just won the World Cup Scratch Race; USA Cycling has been sending riders I've beaten to World Cups and other international races. I can, for a moment, flirt with the notion that I could have been there too. But then I remember that everything's more complicated than that.
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Old 10-22-18, 07:08 AM
  #2181  
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Here's where I think it's personal to McKinnon and not a general "trans in cycling" issue.

Recall that McKinnon started her talk (that she linked to) by stating that she was "An academic, an athlete, and an activist."

I don't think McKinnon "loves track racing for the sake of track racing and just so happens to have stumbled upon a World Championship in the process." Fader touches on that. I think she sport-hopped (badminton, road cycling, track cycling, and maybe other sports) until she found a sport where she could excel "out of the box" and advance her activist goals and give academic talks about it. Please note what she did immediately after winning. She was in full "activist", "academic", and showboat mode when I would expect the "athlete" to simply relish the moment in a "Damn. I did it! This is unbelievable!" kind of way that happens to most when they win their first Nationals or World Championship.

I wonder if she simply did it for the publicity and not for the love of this sport. Could it have easily been Volleyball or Tennis? If so, it's a shame that the other competitors were part of the experiment.
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Old 10-22-18, 07:11 AM
  #2182  
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I wish people would stop holding the IOC as a paragon of how sports should be run. To use it to support the idea that the right to participate in sport is a human right seems a stretch -- not that the idea doesn't have some merit.

The inequity of competitive sport is part of it's definition. However, it's up to the participants / organizations to decide what is acceptable to the rules of the sport -- as well outlined by Carleton in his posts.

SF won fair and square according to the rules as established by the UCI. However, I don't think it's fair to completely dismiss the objections of some of her competitors. As pointed at by many, there are physiologic differences that go beyond just testosterone levels between those who have an xx or xy chromosome. Additionally, are the physiologic differences during childhood development caused by the xy chromosome create an overly unfair playing field in track sprinting?

I would hope that people can consider these things without resorting to "she's a he" or "sour grapes" arguments. This is going to come up again, and more so in the future, and these are not unreasonable questions to ask.
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Old 10-22-18, 02:26 PM
  #2183  
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Yikes guys. The IOC had its first trans policy in 2003, updated in 2015.

This 'dystopian future' hasn't happen. Stop the fear-mongering. Also, you're talking about me like I'm not here. Carleon: you're obsessed, man.
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Old 10-22-18, 02:28 PM
  #2184  
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I was an athlete since I was 3. An elite athlete at 10.

I was an elite athlete before I was an academic.

I started cycling in 2014. Was an elite cyclist in 2016.

Didn't start working or being an activist on this topic until 2017.

I didn't get into any sport to 'make a point.' Carleton, you're salty and offensive to the extreme. You think it's personal for me? Seems REALLY personal for you. Why are you so obsessed?

And Carleton, haters like you are why I am the way I am in the public: because people have been trying to stop me from competing ever since I entered cycling. So SORRY for not being as humble as you'd like or think is how an athlete 'should' behave.

@StanSeven, he's at it again.

Last edited by southernfox; 10-22-18 at 02:48 PM.
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Old 10-22-18, 02:31 PM
  #2185  
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It's cute that this is new to many of you, but it's NOT new to science and sports federations.

https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/2bc3f...e85bae0750.pdf

But keep it up with the hot takes, fellas. Nothing that hasn't been said 10,000+ times to me already in the past week.
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Old 10-22-18, 02:45 PM
  #2186  
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But I'll bow out.

I had Breitbart and Alex Jones yelling about me (yeah, that's whose side you're on).

I have bigger fish the fry than some dude in Atlanta that doesn't even race and can't break 12.0 in a 200m.
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Old 10-22-18, 03:26 PM
  #2187  
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Originally Posted by southernfox View Post
Yikes guys. The IOC had its first trans policy in 2003, updated in 2015.

This 'dystopian future' hasn't happen. Stop the fear-mongering. Also, you're talking about me like I'm not here. Carleon: you're obsessed, man.
Originally Posted by southernfox View Post
I was an athlete since I was 3. An elite athlete at 10.

I was an elite athlete before I was an academic.

I started cycling in 2014. Was an elite cyclist in 2016.

Didn't start working or being an activist on this topic until 2017.

I didn't get into any sport to 'make a point.' Carleton, you're salty and offensive to the extreme. You think it's personal for me? Seems REALLY personal for you. Why are you so obsessed?

And Carleton, haters like you are why I am the way I am in the public: because people have been trying to stop me from competing ever since I entered cycling. So SORRY for not being as humble as you'd like or think is how an athlete 'should' behave.

@StanSeven, he's at it again.
Originally Posted by southernfox View Post
It's cute that this is new to many of you, but it's NOT new to science and sports federations.

https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/2bc3f...e85bae0750.pdf

But keep it up with the hot takes, fellas. Nothing that hasn't been said 10,000+ times to me already in the past week.
Originally Posted by southernfox View Post
But I'll bow out.

I had Breitbart and Alex Jones yelling about me (yeah, that's whose side you're on).

I have bigger fish the fry than some dude in Atlanta that doesn't even race and can't break 12.0 in a 200m.
And there's the @southernfox we all know
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Old 10-22-18, 04:11 PM
  #2188  
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Is Jillian Bearden on Alex Jones' and Breitbart's side too?
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Old 10-22-18, 04:49 PM
  #2189  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Here's where I think it's personal to McKinnon and not a general "trans in cycling" issue.

Recall that McKinnon started her talk (that she linked to) by stating that she was "An academic, an athlete, and an activist."

I don't think McKinnon "loves track racing for the sake of track racing and just so happens to have stumbled upon a World Championship in the process." Fader touches on that. I think she sport-hopped (badminton, road cycling, track cycling, and maybe other sports) until she found a sport where she could excel "out of the box" and advance her activist goals and give academic talks about it. Please note what she did immediately after winning. She was in full "activist", "academic", and showboat mode when I would expect the "athlete" to simply relish the moment in a "Damn. I did it! This is unbelievable!" kind of way that happens to most when they win their first Nationals or World Championship.
.
I was there when all of this took place at Carson. I had the same thoughts as I watched the spectacle unfurl. I just thought that "she just won a world championship! What is all this other stuff." Full disclosure, at the time of the event, I did not realize that McKinnon was SF. I say this because I do not like the entity that is SF on this forum, based on her past statements and verbal behavior. Now that I know that McKinnon and SF are the same person, her behavior after the WC no longer surprises me. That said, although I do not like the person, I don't have a problem with what or who she is, and don't have a problem with her participating in the race, because she competed in accordance with the rules.

Last edited by rensho3; 10-22-18 at 04:53 PM.
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Old 10-23-18, 03:03 AM
  #2190  
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Originally Posted by southernfox View Post
@StanSeven, he's at it again.
I have literally zero interest in the topic on a personal level. It could be best measured by the word "Meh".

But. You seem to be very upset at the idea of people discussion your situation and background despite celebrating it openly on a social media platform. This seems highly hypocritical.

Whilst I can understand (or maybe can't I suppose, it not being my story) this conversation being highly personal to you, it's hard to spot anyone being extremely negative or phobic in any way. It seems to be fairly evenly handed, being both positive and negative and largely speaking not personal in nature.

Yes there's no doubt Carleton can be a bit pissy with you, but there's no doubting there are others too, and by and large I think it's largely due to a level of arrogance they have had to listen to.

Last edited by ruudlaff; 10-23-18 at 08:17 AM.
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Old 10-23-18, 08:09 AM
  #2191  
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Originally Posted by ruudlaff View Post
Yes there's no doubt Carleton can be a bit pissy with you, but there's no doubting there are others too, and by and large I think it's largely due to a level of arrogance they have had to listen to.
I'd rather stay out of this one as well, but it appears she's had a similar history over on the 33, of course not under the fox moniker for whatever reason that may be.
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Old 10-23-18, 11:42 AM
  #2192  
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It would be nice if the mods would move this discussion to a separate thread.
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Old 10-23-18, 04:09 PM
  #2193  
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Here are my two cents:

It seems the rules have existed in their current form for some time now. If these rules were so blatantly misguided wouldn't podiums at major sporting events (major means definitely not a masters event) reflect it? This is a case of one person who won one MASTERS event, why does that require such a vigorous re-examination of the rules?

It's possible for people to rise to the high level of a sport quickly without PEDs or being Transgender. I took up cycling in my early 20's on top of another sport I competed in during my youth. At roughly the same time a woman I knew from that sport also took up cycling. She was competing at the elite level nationally after one season and after 3 seasons was on the national team racing at world cups. In the other sport I had competed at a much higher level than her and yet I haven't been on any cycling world championship podiums.
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Old 10-23-18, 06:49 PM
  #2194  
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Addressing this issue only:

Please don't discount events because they are "only Masters".

Masters racers train as hard, spend as much money (actually more), and sacrifice as much time from family and careers to participate as do elites. I've trained alongside elites and have been coached by coaches of elites and, while the volume and intensity of the training may be different, the commitment is the same. The pain is the same. The fatigue is the same. The cramps are the same. The self-doubt is the same.

Note that many top masters also give elites a run for their money. Several masters here on BF also compete at the elite national level. I was coached by a "master" who won the elite Kilo back to back in 2007. He shared the podium with Taylor Phinney in 2008...in his 40s.

Here are the US Elite Sprint and Kilo podiums from 2008. Phinney and Watkins are Olympians. Rockmore was an up and coming elite sprinter (not sure what happened to him). Hill was 42 year old Master.




If I have my story right, Hill was an elite racer when younger, left the sport for career, came back as a master, then got elite fast again.

It's my understanding that Cari Higgins actually started as a masters racer and got pro fast and represented the US in international elite competition taking home lots of hardware from Pan Ams and World Cups.



I could cite several more examples.

Further...

I'll be damned if I train for a full year only to be beaten by someone who breaks the rules in the biggest event of the year (how many US Masters have been busted for doping?).

All sports is relative. A masters racer lining up for Masters Nationals or Worlds has the same jitters as the elite. And I imagine winning and losing feel equally as sweet and bitter.

Anywho...masters is kind of a big deal at the faster end of it.

Last edited by carleton; 10-23-18 at 07:50 PM.
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Old 10-24-18, 06:32 AM
  #2195  
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I think this post from earlier pretty much sums up my feelings. Things like racing categories and age groups/masters racing are great because they make competition more fun and accessible for people of different ability levels. Elite competition is different


Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
Right?


As a bike racer, I've come to terms with disappointment a lot - being beaten by people who outclass the rest of the field; being beaten by full time athletes who just get to train more and recover better; athletes who don't have to travel to this race that we're both at; or natural athletes who just start out a ****load faster, stronger, and better than I did. I think that the stuff around sex and gender with trans participation hits some competitive people hard because we like to think that we have a shot of winning, and we like to think that there is something fundamentally disqualifying about people who beat us: to too many bike racers, winners are either dopers or sandbaggers. I've seen a lot of bike racers (and surely it's similar in other sports) try to figure out how to ensure that racing is a "level playing field" - which, honestly, means that a lot of people want to ensure that they're only racing races where they have a reasonable shot at winning or medaling.


But sports aren't about a fair playing field or having a shot at winning. For me, it's about coming to terms with the certainty that I am not the best - that there are a lot of people who are better than me - and the more I try to slice away at the competition to remove them from the starting line in the first place, the more I smell bull**** on my breath - you know?


Cycling lets you touch the hem of your dreams. A guy I race with at ttown just won the World Cup Scratch Race; USA Cycling has been sending riders I've beaten to World Cups and other international races. I can, for a moment, flirt with the notion that I could have been there too. But then I remember that everything's more complicated than that.

I think I understand this because of my experience in another sport. If I went back to swimming tomorrow and was able to get close to how fast I was 7 years ago in college I would be on the podium at masters worlds in multiple events and probably win one. To me that means nothing since there would still be literally thousands of elites posting faster times than that any given year.


Anyways, correct me if I'm wrong but no rules have been broken here right? Like I said before I don't think the fact that one athlete winning one event at Masters worlds is reason enough to have this much debate on the validity of the rules. If multiple Trans athletes are dominating podiums at elite worlds then maybe.
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Old 10-24-18, 10:32 AM
  #2196  
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Carleton:
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Old 10-24-18, 11:04 AM
  #2197  
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Originally Posted by rustymongrel View Post
Anyways, correct me if I'm wrong but no rules have been broken here right? Like I said before I don't think the fact that one athlete winning one event at Masters worlds is reason enough to have this much debate on the validity of the rules. If multiple Trans athletes are dominating podiums at elite worlds then maybe.
Yep -- I haven't read or heard anything that points to any rules being broken. And regardless of any personal feelings, McKinnon's accomplishment is momentous.
What I wonder is -- the current system of sport with regard to men's and women's classifications was created without consideration for transgender athletes (correct me if I'm wrong), so would it look different if it were rebuilt from the ground up today with transgender athletes' inclusion as a real consideration rather than an afterthought?

Last edited by seau grateau; 10-24-18 at 11:11 AM.
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Old 11-10-18, 02:15 PM
  #2198  
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The gift of losing:
0.490 Seconds. ? ALP Cycles Coaching
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Old 11-15-18, 04:50 AM
  #2199  
Morelock
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Now you can buy (if you're in the UK at least) the chain GB used at the Rio Olympics... I'm as big of an efficiency nerd as you'll find, but even I raised an eyebrow reading this

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/p...t-cheap-400017
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Old 11-15-18, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Morelock View Post
Now you can buy (if you're in the UK at least) the chain GB used at the Rio Olympics... I'm as big of an efficiency nerd as you'll find, but even I raised an eyebrow reading this

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/p...t-cheap-400017
Or you could duplicate Wiggins and use a $7,800 chain (source: My Hour by Wiggins, page 53).
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