Markeologist

You interested in a first year Montare? I found one for sale…you indicated your 86 was too small so I thought I’d ask!

Santuri32

Thank you, I'm not looking for another...I need to look into selling mine actually...would it be possible for you share the Montare sheet for 87?... if you can then no hurry. T-Mar told me that mine is a 1986 1/2 and kindly showed me a bike shop flyer supporting that, butI would like to contrast 86 and 87 specs. I do have an 86 catalog that found online.

Santuri32

They also resemble the 79-80s scalloped top, and "straight" bottom of the 81-82s. The builder may have taken clues form all previous models.

pcollinsbride

Hello! I need some helping IDing this bike. It seems to be a Toyo built, Canadian Fisher. It was purchased by my father in San Francisco circa '85. The logos all had Fisher on them, no mention of Ritchey. Original color was maybe beige? Repainted green, then orange. This thing has climbed Oakland/Moraga more times than we can count!

Could this be a Ritchey build? I feel as though the Tange fork means Toyo. Shimano 600 headset, biopace rings, deerhead shifters, bullmoose bars. He always told me he wanted a Ritchey bike and I think it would be amazing if he had one all along!

I will repost with updated photos after the restore! I cannot add photots to my post until I have 10 posts... Serial number is 4G10712.

VtwinVince

This is a fascinating thread. I only have one Fisher, an '89 Paragon, but have always admired its design characteristics. I'm also interested in the connection between Ritchey and the RM Sherpa, as I have an example from '82.

Santuri32

Welcome to the forum. I imagine that just like the above 4E in Rose color, yours is the first year Montare. 4G (July 1984), if non-Rocky Mountain Ritchey decals anywhere but you do see the MountainBikes ones then it may possibly represent first month of the 1985 Montare for USA market. The color was green and Rose for the Canadian and maybe for some USA, the Gray and Blue for the USA, other colors may have been available but not documented on printouts or it could be a repaint. If repainted then decals may confuse the story.

pcollinsbride

Thank you!

Given it was purchased used in San Francisco, could it have been a Ritchey built frame?

Santuri32

I would say no. Remember that those early Montare were made by Toyo, and just designed by Ritchey/Fisher during their last year of collaboration. Is your bike soldered or beautifully fillet-brazed?

Santuri32

Where the Sherpas really made that early or were the early 1983 production bikes were called 1982 model year bikes. I've seen Sherpas with serial number M3C (Miki 1983 March) being called 1982 bikes, what is your serial?

VtwinVince

Good question Santuri, My SN is hard to make out, but appears to be 5009188.

Santuri32

Rocky Mountain owner went together with Gary and Tom to Japan to visit several parts and frame builders, from that visit the first Rocky Mountain Bikes imported from Japan by them came to realization. The Sherpa was introduced late in 1982 therefore carries the title of first Canadian mountain bike. Is the same way all new model year bikes were introduced, that is late in the year of the model year. Specialized did this with their 1982 Stumpjumper (introduced in October of 1981). The RM Sherpa, the RM Montare (designed by Ritchey), later MountainBikes Montare sold by Fisher were the result of that trip and all made by Toyo. For those early bikes Toyo used a serial number in the format ymxxxxx, in which m=month (A-L). Your bike if made in Japan, follows this format so its an 1985 year bike and the first O must be a letter C for March.

The first Sherpas had a Super Scooter sticker on the top tube and apparently came in Red, Yellow, and Black and early ones may or not have come with Shimano Deer Head components as that group appeared in October 1982.
Here are some examples.

VtwinVince

Thanks for the update. Mine is a red one which has faded to orange and is badged Super Scooter.

fhaas

I just ran across this thread today.

I worked with Tom Teesdale from fall of 1983 to 1989. In fact I remember him building the original prototype frame that Gary inspected to approve Tom as one of his first builders. Tom built all the different seat cluster arrangements and also introduced the wrap around stays on some Mt Tam specials for Gary. These stay end were silver brazed over the bronze fillets. Something Tom liked to do to show off his skill with a torch. Some prototypes Tom build this way and did a final run later toward the end of the Mt. Tams. At the time Everests and Tams were built side by side, the only difference was the fillet size. Finish was pretty much the same as all of them done by hand. I had the callouses to prove it then. By 1985 I was brazing as many frames as Tom did in the factory. We had dual stands side by side and we'd braze up a batch of frames in 1-2 days. Then spend the next week finishing the fillets and installing the braze-ons and alignments. During peak months batches of 35 were shipped to Fisher finished ready for paint.

As for the TT or TET stampings. originally we built for Gary for at least a year before we started to stamp the BB shells. This was due to Tom being worried about being asked to replace damaged or broken frames from "other" builders. Gary was always elusive about who was building for him besides us and wouldn't release names but I remember at least once a frame sent back for repair that we hadn't built. Tom started stamping TT and then later TET probably by mid to late 1985. Gary was furious at first, then later caved and finally told the public who was building some of his top end frames a year or two later.

I remember building Everests, Mt. Tams, Competitions all in batches of 10-35. Sometimes 2-3 dIfferent sizes at once. In 1985/86 Teesdale started to offer to paint the frames as Gary was having trouble getting CycleArt and others to paint them quick enough. I painted a number of the Grey and Teal frame-sets for 6 months. Tom then took over and did them on the weekends and in his "off" hours. Cathy his wife started painting most of the Teesdale production after that.

During this time we also free lanced work for Salsa stems, Santana and later Marin and Kona. Alongside our road frames for Terry cycles and Tri frames for Quintana Roo. I remember building a batch of MTB Fisher tandems too. I bought a set of tubing from Gary and built my sister her wedding present which was a custom Fisher MTB Tandem in 1987. I believe the tubing was sourced from Santana. We also built a good number of road tandems for Santana when they're productiong couldn't keep up.

Thats much what I remember, it's been 35 years ago. Back then we were mostly concerned to keeping the doors open making high quality frames quickly and getting paid for them. The MTB boom was in full swing we just were tying to get as many frames to Gary as we could. Not worrying about documenting the details for posterity.

Regards,
Frank Haas
White Salmon, WA USA

Santuri32

Thank you Frank for the amazing information and trip to the past. I have not yet found any TT stamped frames earlier that what I understand are 1987 bikes and is possible that some of these bikes may be mid model year 1986. I based this on a few pristine looking examples with original paint schemes matching brochures and components.
Attached is an example of a wrap around MT TAM that I believe is from that period, notice the pump peg. I have a TIG Team Marin from the 1987 race team that has no TT (see yellow cluster, matching Fisher Japanese bikes), I hope I find the mystery builder some day.

fhaas

A quick reply as I looked at a couple Competition frames or bikes I have in house. Both original paint that have the TT stamping. Maybe we started to stamp the Competitions first, Tams later as Tom was worried about breakage with the smaller fillets off road. TT stamping was first, then TET. Either way both Comps I have has the S bend chain stays (which I never liked as they weren't as stiff but gave more mud clearance). i thought Comps were first offered in 1985 from Gary. We only built them like 2 years. Gary later dropped the small fillets in favor of tig welding which was lighter and he thought stronger and of course cheaper. Gary thought on a race bike cosmetics weren't as critical, light weight was.

Your Team Marin may have well been made by Teesdale and lack of a TT or TET stamping doesn't mean Tom didn't build it. We built many of the early Team Marin bikes as Tom and Joe Murray had a good relationship from what i remember. That is right after Joe left Fisher. The Fisher seat post sleeve might well have been "borrowed" from stock to make some bikes for Joe. We had boxes of them. Is there a S/N on the BB shell? If so check the font stamping with a Fisher Tam and see if they match. We used the same stamps on everything then. No guarantee though as it was a stock cheap stamp set.

Sorry can't post picts, I haven't hit 10 posts yet.

Regards,
Frank Haas, White Salmon, WA

Santuri32

I have only seen TT stamped Comps from 1988 and have never seen an 1989 Comp. The Hipstay (S-shaped) as Gary called it apparently was introduced in 1988 on the top of the line bikes and then in all bikes in 1989. So your Comps may be 1988s. So it appears as it could be that TT were stamped before Comps, based on the few frames I have info about. Competition were made from 1983-1989, I see head clusters that look like Teesdale from 1987 to 1989 and perhaps 1986 bikes were still left over frames made partially by Ritchey. I say partially since is not clear if Ritchey made bikes with chainstay brake bosses for Gary and their relation ended right before his relationship with Teesdale began in 1984.

My Team Marin doesn't have any serial number or marks, they sold a Team Comp that year that was perhaps serialized but not the very first Team racing bikes which were likely less that 30 bikes. The Team Comp looks like the Team but apparently was fillet brazed, I have only seen one of these bikes from a low resolution magazine review.

Santuri32

Actually there were no 1989 Competitions only MT Tams and Classic MT Tams. What your comment about you build Comps only for two years partially supports the suspicion of the OP about his 1985 being made by Ritchey.

fhaas

You have to remember this was 35+ years ago and my memory could be a year or two off. Since I can't post picts I found a Fisher Competition on MOMBAT museum they call 1985 and has the Rollercam brakes on the chainstays. Of course Gary could have taken a 1984 Ritchey frame and sent it out to be converted from rear cantilevers. The MOMBAT bike and my Competition both have the same paint job, only mine with the S bend stays. I could swear we built Competitions first with standard Tange Prestige stays in 1985 and then swapped over to the softer "S" bend ones a year later in 86, but it could have been 87. I didn't like them as they weren't Tange Presige, but True Temper and softer and easy to bend. We otten built frames 3-6 months before they were sold so a mid 1986 frame could have been a spring sold 1987 model. In any case I don't remember building any Comps in 1988 and I left Teesdale in 1989 as I moved to Indiana for a year and then to Oregon to start my own company.

Frank Haas, White Salmon WA

Santuri32

Missing those dates by only one or two years is just as normal as it gets . One important point that you make is that you were making frames 6-months ahead of release and new model year bikes were sometime available in August of the previous year. That makes your assessment even better since your '87 made bike was my '88 purchase bike. We discuss earlier in the thread that MOMBAT bike was off on its bike since it has the 1987 and 1988 only S bend chainstays. I called it an '88 since I considered the wrap around stays over the top tube were an '87 only feature. The information you provide is great to have, is the first time I hear about the true temper stays. Not making any Comps in 1988 matches the fact that there were no 1989 Comps.

Based on what you say Teesdale-made Comps (at least) were made in two years, 1986 to sell as 1987 and 1987 to sell as 1988, when you look at seat clusters timeline above these are clearly different that the previous although 1985 made for 1986 distribution shares somewhat the thickness and shape and may have been made by Teesdale as well. Do you remember making or installing fastback stays?

Santuri32

I need to add that all the few '87 and '88 bikes I've seen are stamped TT and TET, and the '86 have no stamping. Its also recorded that Fisher was in contracting business with Teesdale in 1984. So the mystery is whether Teesdale made bikes in 1984 to sell as 1985 or is Teesdale made bikes in 1984 to sell as 1986 on maybe because Fisher was reorganizing after the split with Ritchey and had enough left over frames to wait for Teesdale made bikes. The other confusing datum is that Teesdale apparently made Everest frames and these were last available in summer 1986 as 1985 made bikes.

fhaas

I met Teesdale in 1979 and later I started working with Tom in 1983 learning tube mitering, frame finishing and frame assembly. Then later using a torch. Moved to full time employment when we started building Fishers. Gary had a couple builders early on during the Ritchey break up. How many I don't know, Gary wouldn't ever say. I think Teesdale turned out to be the most consistent supplier and eventually Gary turned most fillet build frames over to us to build.

Tom started building Everests and Tams, then later also Competitions. We built all the different seat stay configurations. I only remember doing below binder mitered seat-stays on Competitions, but Tams and Everests had both style seat clusters. I never liked the fastback design, but it was easier to build and finish but I didn't think as strong or good looking. Teesdale used the wrap around road style seat stays for his 1st prototype frame for Gary. I think Gary thought it cool looking.

I remember when the first Zebra and Tiger striped Everests came out. Gary took our frames and did the wild paint at Cycle-art. They were a big hit in the magazines. Gary sold quite a few of them. I have one I found years later that I need to re-paint one day and get black parts to finish up like stock. I just started to paint bikes again, playing with a vintage stash of old road and MTB's frame-sets. I still ride a lot of bikes from the 60-80's and my modern road bikes as well.

Frank

Santuri32

Too bad these frames didn't have a date code, all we have to date are geometry, paint, features and components

If Teesdale made Everests and these were mentioned last on a price list effective September 1 1984 and not on the 1985 Catalog, and you remember the Tiger and Zebra ones were Teesdale made bikes is likely these were all either Teesdale made or Ritchey leftover frames (maybe that's why there were no other manufactures mentioned) It is been mentioned by Fisher himself in an interview he repainted leftover frames after the breakup. Everest not appearing on the catalog means these were made from Fall 1983 to sometime late in 1984. Competition and Tams were probably made during that period as well and continued until 1987.

This is great information as Everest was the original popular USA made mountain bike 19(79?)80-1985

fhaas

I guess with this thread I’ll hit 10 posts before long.

Teesdale built Mt. Everests for Gary before we did Mt. Tams. The 1st batch of frames out to Fisher were Everests. Built them in small quantities of 5 at first, then 10 later. I think Gary wanted Everests badly as he had orders for them, and he could charge more as well. Splitting with Ritchey he couldn’t fill those orders till he had a builder that could consistently replicate them. It’s quite possible we never stamped Everests TT or TET as I think we were done making them by then.

Mt Tams were the same frame tubing, only difference were smaller fillets than Everests. For the most part the finish work was identical. I remember Tom brazing up the first Everests, they had very 1” large fillets! Seemed way over kill and I think eventually as we built more of them, we reduced the size a little to save weight and money on filler rod.

You maybe right that we only built Everests till end of 1984. By then Tams were fast becoming the main US Fisher offering. Everests weren’t selling as they cost quite a bit more for the same functionality. I think that’s why Gary did the Tiger and Zebra Everests to get interest to move final Everest MTB inventory. I also remember Tom building the frame for Bob Weir. I was in the process of moving to Indiana, but Tom was proud of that bike.

Oh, before I forget, Teesdale was the one that started to put T.A. star water bottle reinforcements tabs on the Fisher frames. Before Tom did this the frames just had a T.A. top hat brazed in with no reinforcement. Teesdale thought that being an offroad bike, they should be reinforced. So, if it has a WB stars it’s a Teesdale built bike. We figured out early on when moving the 2nd bottle bosses to the seat tube the need to round off the inner star tab as it would interfere with the front derailleur range up/down the seat tube. I did that by hand with a bench grinder so none of them were 100% the same. I think the 1st batch we shipped out with stars Gary told us that they couldn’t assemble the frames correctly. Hence the running change.

Frank Haas, White Salmon, WA

Santuri32

That's the idea Frank, we'll have you uploading pics of your nice bikes pretty soon.

• None of the handful of 1984-85 Everests I've seen have stamped TT or TET, but again no bike prior to 87 either.
• The start braze-ons were Teesdale's that's is an important detail that I suspected, what is a top hat braze-on?
• I've seen the files stars in the inside but only on the seat tube, on the down tube they have the four points

Do you remember making early bikes without rear roller cam brakes or with dual water bottle bosses on the down tube only? I know it may be hard to remember

Thanks

fhaas

Oh, yes, the first year we built a number of frames that had double water bottles braze-ons on the down tubes and cantilever bosses front and rear. I would say the first 6-8 months into working for Fisher. This was for Everests and Tams mainly on the larger frames. I don't remember doing any double WB mounts on down tubes and rollercam chainstay brake studs.

Fisher did send us blue prints from time to time with new specs on the frames. I think the first ones were when the head tube angles changed. Teesdale would often makes notes on them and roll them up and store them near the drafting table. I think Matt or John his sons have several copies still. Back then Tom would always do a full scale drawing of every frame we built. He was a math teacher before turning to building frames for a living. Had a bunch of formulas for figuring out tube lengths based upon frame angles and top tube length but he'd still want a drawing to double check the math. This was before computers were common.

Frank Haas, White Salmon, WA