Why are bike weights "unavailable"?
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Oh I forgot to add - I found out later the Straggler frame weighs ~40 grames/1.5 ounce heavier than the Double Cross Disc I purchased. Had I known that I'd have just bought the Surly. And probably ended up with a Midnight Special instead of a Fog Cutter and a Krampus instead of a Juice. Oh well.
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Tolerance stacking. Everything manufactured has a tolerance of some kind. Years ago when I was building one for my bikes, I researched all the parts very carefully.
I noticed that Shimano was smart enough to list average weights of their parts. If you build a bike where most of the parts are on the heavy side of the tolerance, you have a heavier bike. If you have parts that are all on the light side you end up with a lighter bike. One cannot make tolerances go away.
Everything that goes into a bike has weight tolerances. There is no one "weight". The differences may be very small on some things, and bigger on other things.
I don't have any interest at looking at all the parts now to see the weight tolerances. The finished bike makers can't control what the parts all weigh separately.
The fact that no one mentioned average weight and we are all talking about "weight" is a problem. It already is a negative for a bike retailer if anyone in this thread were buying a bike from them and looking to be very picky about the weight. The different tolerances stack up in either direction (or not) as each part is added to the finished bike.
I noticed that Shimano was smart enough to list average weights of their parts. If you build a bike where most of the parts are on the heavy side of the tolerance, you have a heavier bike. If you have parts that are all on the light side you end up with a lighter bike. One cannot make tolerances go away.
Everything that goes into a bike has weight tolerances. There is no one "weight". The differences may be very small on some things, and bigger on other things.
I don't have any interest at looking at all the parts now to see the weight tolerances. The finished bike makers can't control what the parts all weigh separately.
The fact that no one mentioned average weight and we are all talking about "weight" is a problem. It already is a negative for a bike retailer if anyone in this thread were buying a bike from them and looking to be very picky about the weight. The different tolerances stack up in either direction (or not) as each part is added to the finished bike.
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Everything that goes into a bike has weight tolerances. There is no one "weight". The differences may be very small on some things, and bigger on other things.
I don't have any interest at looking at all the parts now to see the weight tolerances. The finished bike makers can't control what the parts all weigh separately.
.
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As weight goes, I mostly want to know if a bike is generally closer to 20, 25, or 30 pounds. If a mfr said bike x generally weighs between 25 and 29 pounds, that is helpful, and specific enough since that is within the range of water bottles and other gear impact on total weight. But I don't care that much as it turns out or I wouldn't ride what I ride.
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Oh I forgot to add - I found out later the Straggler frame weighs ~40 grames/1.5 ounce heavier than the Double Cross Disc I purchased. Had I known that I'd have just bought the Surly. And probably ended up with a Midnight Special instead of a Fog Cutter and a Krampus instead of a Juice. Oh well.
Also, it took me about 1 minute of searching to find a claimed weight on the Straggler.
“Frame weight is a claimed 2.27kg (5lb) and the fork sits at 2.3lb (1,050g). “
Last edited by Kapusta; 02-08-20 at 01:20 PM.
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Well I guess that blows the theory being passed around this thread that companies not publishing weighs have something to hide.
Also, it took me about 1 minute of searching to find a claimed weight on the Straggler.
“Frame weight is a claimed 2.27kg (5lb) and the fork sits at 2.3lb (1,050g). “
Also, it took me about 1 minute of searching to find a claimed weight on the Straggler.
“Frame weight is a claimed 2.27kg (5lb) and the fork sits at 2.3lb (1,050g). “
The example I saw weighed at a Surly dealer in 2016 was 4.4 pounds for the 54cm frame and 1.9 pounds for the fork uncut. Looks like something changed in the 3 years since your quoted source and/or the production run. In this case it really seems like obfuscation is a net negative, potentially false information is online but could be easily cleared up with the proper value specified on the manufacturers website.
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Here's your link you forgot: https://www.bikeradar.com/news/surly...eurobike-2013/
The example I saw weighed at a Surly dealer in 2016 was 4.4 pounds for the 54cm frame and 1.9 pounds for the fork uncut. Looks like something changed in the 3 years since your quoted source and/or the production run. In this case it really seems like obfuscation is a net negative, potentially false information is online but could be easily cleared up with the proper value specified on the manufacturers website.
The example I saw weighed at a Surly dealer in 2016 was 4.4 pounds for the 54cm frame and 1.9 pounds for the fork uncut. Looks like something changed in the 3 years since your quoted source and/or the production run. In this case it really seems like obfuscation is a net negative, potentially false information is online but could be easily cleared up with the proper value specified on the manufacturers website.
My 48cm Fog cutter was around 4.5 lbs.... a quarter pound over claimed weight.
I just can’t wrap my head around the idea that it is more honest to give an unreliable number and say “this is the number” than to say “we can’t give a reliable number”.
To me, a company that chooses to do the latter is the one being more honest. They are not making any false claims.
Weight as a spec is totally different from something like bottom bracket size. The bottom bracket type is a categorical value, and what they tell you is exactly what it is.
Geo numbers are also known quantities, if you know the fork length being assumed. I have a far bigger beef with geo charts that leave off the assumed fork length than companies that don’t give a weight.
If you ask me, being that obsessed with the weight (especially on a budget brand like Surly) is just a bad idea. Most frames of similar material, size, purpose and price are going to be well within a pound of each other. There are so many other factors that matter far more: geo (many factors there), frame stiffness, ride quality tire clearance, brake type, bb type, axle type, mounts, cable routing are all things that I find far more compelling than small differences in frame weight.
FWIW, I’ve got two Surlys (Karate Monkey and Wednesday) and one Soma (Fog Cutter). I never even considered the weight of any of the frames. I knew none of them would be light. What I did notice is that the quality control on the Soma was pretty bad, and the ride quality is not quite as good as the Salsa Casseroll it replaced. Those are things that actually matter. Knowing what frame is a half pound heavier or lighter? Who cares?
If you want to make frame decisions based on claimed weight differences, and avoid brands that do not publish (even though you can usually find the info elsewhere) go ahead. Some people like to be lied to. Its your loss, IMO. You even said you would have bought the Surlys instead.
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People who've been around a while in the bike industry remember that, back in the '80s, bike tire manufacturers used to manipulate naive weight weenies looking for the lightest tires by marking tires as wider than they actually measured; e.g., tires that measured 23 mm wide inflated on the standard rim were marked 700 x 25, etc. Compare the weight of that "25-mm" tire to the weight of a real 25-mm tire, and of course you'd buy the lighter one.
Continental unilaterally ended that game by earning a reputation for manufacturing very high quality tires and marking them honestly.
If I ran a bike company, I'd be highly tempted to leave the weights of the bikes unannounced, just to avoid having to participate in those kinds of games.
Continental unilaterally ended that game by earning a reputation for manufacturing very high quality tires and marking them honestly.
If I ran a bike company, I'd be highly tempted to leave the weights of the bikes unannounced, just to avoid having to participate in those kinds of games.
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ahh.. we're being saved from ourselves. That's why some bike company's size 56s are the same real size as another company's 58s, or god forbid the sizing is in S/M/L/XL.. we'd never be able to figure it out for ourselves and would buy the wrong size bike based on the wrong weight information etc.
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The fact that some manufacturers do list weights is proof that it can be done and presumably they're not getting sued when persnickety Pete finds his new purchase is a fraction over the advertised weight. In a similar vein, car makers regularly publish performance times which were achieved under ideal conditions that are almost impossible to reproduce by the average driver yet they survive the legal onslaught.
And to the argument that components change mid-cycle does not hold water. The only components a manufacturer could change mid-cycle without having to re-advertise it as a new model are minor (generic seat posts, bars, saddle etc.) and it's not like they can't specify that a substitute doesn't stray too far the spec weight. I mean, how much weight would you have to add to a seat post such that the advertised weight is no longer within advertised range?
To be sure, weight is not that important but it is useful information. Just like 1/4 mile times in a family car are not relevant to the road, bike weight is useful as a comparison tool when comparing various models and particularly when one stands out as significantly heavier (or lighter) than others which makes you ask why.
When I don't see a weight published I always think what are they trying to hide?
So stand on the side of publish the weight. It's not like its hard to do.
And to the argument that components change mid-cycle does not hold water. The only components a manufacturer could change mid-cycle without having to re-advertise it as a new model are minor (generic seat posts, bars, saddle etc.) and it's not like they can't specify that a substitute doesn't stray too far the spec weight. I mean, how much weight would you have to add to a seat post such that the advertised weight is no longer within advertised range?
To be sure, weight is not that important but it is useful information. Just like 1/4 mile times in a family car are not relevant to the road, bike weight is useful as a comparison tool when comparing various models and particularly when one stands out as significantly heavier (or lighter) than others which makes you ask why.
When I don't see a weight published I always think what are they trying to hide?
So stand on the side of publish the weight. It's not like its hard to do.
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ahh.. we're being saved from ourselves. That's why some bike company's size 56s are the same real size as another company's 58s, or god forbid the sizing is in S/M/L/XL.. we'd never be able to figure it out for ourselves and would buy the wrong size bike based on the wrong weight information etc.
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More industry apologizing and deflecting to making it seem that to want to have some info available, that should be available, is a character flaw.. BTW there's a whole WW forum that I think was founded on this stuff. Trek can publish at least one size weight, why can't others? Heck, Trek even goes to 2 decimal points on the frame size they've chosen to supply the weight for (which is in the neighborhood of +/-10 grams). The explanation I think most offered in this thread that there's a fear of being sued or some sort of ridiculous supposition of liability if they publish an incorrect weight. Trek is shaking in their boots.
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I won't buy a bike if the manufacturer can't give me a weight. I bought a Domane and Trek doesn't hide that the bike is a bit of a porker. But at least they gave me that information.
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Why not? After all, some lawyers feel free to pontificate on non-legal issues on BF.
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The premise of this thread is that bike companies are doping something wrong by not publishing the weights of their bicycles. So every post based on that premise is attacking the industry, and everyone who offers answers to the OP's question is insulted as being "industry apologists."
Fact is, few if any of us have dogs in this fight. Most of us ignored the inherent bias in the formulation of the question and tried to offer possible answers. For this, were were insulted. Welcome to the internet.
Bike manufacturers are under no obligation to provide any information about their bikes. Any information they provide, they provide because they think it will increase sales. Any information they do not provide, they do not provide because they do not think it will increase sales, or might hurt sales. Simple as can be ... except when the conspiracy theorists let their tinfoil hats get slightly askew, the aliens' thought-wave machines start making them think suspicious thought about Everything.
There is no conspiracy. People in the marketing department looked over the competition's ads, decided how much they needed to include, and left out the rest. Obviously (see Giant's different policies in different countries) different marketing departments in different regions came to different conclusions about what would be best included or omitted.
I am not saying that people who see conspiracies everywhere, and think that any business employing more than three people is inherently evil, that their points of view are ridiculous. Really I am not.
Fact is, few if any of us have dogs in this fight. Most of us ignored the inherent bias in the formulation of the question and tried to offer possible answers. For this, were were insulted. Welcome to the internet.
Bike manufacturers are under no obligation to provide any information about their bikes. Any information they provide, they provide because they think it will increase sales. Any information they do not provide, they do not provide because they do not think it will increase sales, or might hurt sales. Simple as can be ... except when the conspiracy theorists let their tinfoil hats get slightly askew, the aliens' thought-wave machines start making them think suspicious thought about Everything.
There is no conspiracy. People in the marketing department looked over the competition's ads, decided how much they needed to include, and left out the rest. Obviously (see Giant's different policies in different countries) different marketing departments in different regions came to different conclusions about what would be best included or omitted.
I am not saying that people who see conspiracies everywhere, and think that any business employing more than three people is inherently evil, that their points of view are ridiculous. Really I am not.
#92
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The premise of this thread is that bike companies are doping something wrong by not publishing the weights of their bicycles. So every post based on that premise is attacking the industry, and everyone who offers answers to the OP's question is insulted as being "industry apologists."
Fact is, few if any of us have dogs in this fight. Most of us ignored the inherent bias in the formulation of the question and tried to offer possible answers. For this, were were insulted. Welcome to the internet.
Bike manufacturers are under no obligation to provide any information about their bikes. Any information they provide, they provide because they think it will increase sales. Any information they do not provide, they do not provide because they do not think it will increase sales, or might hurt sales. Simple as can be ... except when the conspiracy theorists let their tinfoil hats get slightly askew, the aliens' thought-wave machines start making them think suspicious thought about Everything.
There is no conspiracy. People in the marketing department looked over the competition's ads, decided how much they needed to include, and left out the rest. Obviously (see Giant's different policies in different countries) different marketing departments in different regions came to different conclusions about what would be best included or omitted.
I am not saying that people who see conspiracies everywhere, and think that any business employing more than three people is inherently evil, that their points of view are ridiculous. Really I am not.
Fact is, few if any of us have dogs in this fight. Most of us ignored the inherent bias in the formulation of the question and tried to offer possible answers. For this, were were insulted. Welcome to the internet.
Bike manufacturers are under no obligation to provide any information about their bikes. Any information they provide, they provide because they think it will increase sales. Any information they do not provide, they do not provide because they do not think it will increase sales, or might hurt sales. Simple as can be ... except when the conspiracy theorists let their tinfoil hats get slightly askew, the aliens' thought-wave machines start making them think suspicious thought about Everything.
There is no conspiracy. People in the marketing department looked over the competition's ads, decided how much they needed to include, and left out the rest. Obviously (see Giant's different policies in different countries) different marketing departments in different regions came to different conclusions about what would be best included or omitted.
I am not saying that people who see conspiracies everywhere, and think that any business employing more than three people is inherently evil, that their points of view are ridiculous. Really I am not.
And it's not that they're doing something wrong, it's more that they're not making available information that they could. I don't see anything wrong in people asking for more information out of the bike companies -- especially the ones who comparatively (to other bike companies) don't provide any.
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I purchased 3 different bikes long time ago and never even considered checking how much they weigh...Now 13 years later and after riding thousands of miles on them I still don't know how much my bikes weigh.
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Did you ask your wife what she weighed before proposing?
Okay, that is your WIFE.
I know what that implies for the N+x crowd. We are happy..
Okay, that is your WIFE.
I know what that implies for the N+x crowd. We are happy..
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This thread is new to me having just seen it. So, my apologies if the following has already been posted. Trek on all their road bikes, (three lines), and the one line of mountain bikes I checked gave the weight from the cheapest bike to the most expensive: For the road bikes all were 56 cm frames and the one mountain bike was a medium-size frame.
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Anyone ever actually check Trek's weight figures for accuracy?
Spesh and Giant don't do it, Trek does. Liability for false claims is a real thing. Companies weigh legal risk vs. marketing benefit. It doesn't make us wrong about why if one company makes that cost/benefit calculation differently.
I don't care whether you feel a need to boycott bikes without published weight claims. That wasn't the question in the OP. I do think there's very sound reasons to believe that the published weights aren't going to be very accurate.
Spesh and Giant don't do it, Trek does. Liability for false claims is a real thing. Companies weigh legal risk vs. marketing benefit. It doesn't make us wrong about why if one company makes that cost/benefit calculation differently.
I don't care whether you feel a need to boycott bikes without published weight claims. That wasn't the question in the OP. I do think there's very sound reasons to believe that the published weights aren't going to be very accurate.
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I don't worry about bike weight for touring. For road, I go custom, so there's no pre-purchase weight to list. But some of y'all keep up the handwringing.
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The issue is that if they get it wrong and underestimate, then they could be liable for the "false" claims of lightness. Strikes me that there's a comparatively high margin of error in the components and the subcomponents (tape, spoke nipples, chain lube, bearings?) and that companies don't find that risk worth it.
Go to the Weightweenie site (at starbike.com I think) I always just Google weightweenie.com.... You will see manufacturers have been misunderstanding components and frames since the first scale was invented. Risk? It's just not necessary for them to do. It could be done. Even with baseline caveats like "as equipped", "as specified", or as pictured". Consumers,' taken as a whole, don't make it a demand, as part of their purchasing decision. So they skate.